Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread
I have been playing 30 rounds with 2.1.20376 no errors!
Updating to 2.1.20386, for another go
A nice surprise when I reached level 8, shhh, dont tell everyone what it is.
This is a great game!
Here are my thoughts right now on fixes and stuff:
1. Food is in way to high abundance mid/late-game. Therefore food supply on the map should be nerfed.
Wood is for ships and artillery. I think it is a matter of play style if this is used up by the player or not. I would not adjust this resource just yet. Food balance first.
Gold would be the next resource to balance as all players use them for Factories and race specific special units.
Mana and Oil is only for special units, therefore cost adjustments will bring down the abundance. Any race’s special unit price elevation is also a delicate matter, so I would like to postpone this until the Food resource, and after this - also gold, is adjusted.
2. Bowmen and Crossbowmen are weak, but I also see them as cost effective attack and defense units. I think this is a matter of preference and play style. If food availability is nerfed, I think it would be a good idea to cut the Crossbow and Bow Food cost in half, down to 5 Food. Then they will not be in so much competition with the Footmen when it comes to purchase. And in this map, Footmen are “good quality” units, skilled warriors that are suppirior to the rest of the infantry. So I think it would be fitting.
3. Cavalry cost. I agree that it should be raised. Maybe 15 Food, not 10. I guess the animals consume some vegetables, or in the case of the Gnomen mechanical cavalry ... maybe they need vegetable-oil I will not lower PU cost … but this is purely an AI technical thing, as AI players would highly favor Cavalry only armies.
4. Artillery cost effectiveness. I think it is a matter of play style and preference. Personally I dig artillery, but I don’t know how effective they are compared to spending the PUs on Irregulars and Footmen. My love of artillery might be counterproductive if they are actually not cost effective. But I think one thing is clear; you really do need artillery for taking down factories/fortifications. Right? And if you don’t like artillery, then there is more than enough wood for ships, right?
5. Fire-Thrower effectiveness:
17 Fire-Throwers (510 PUs) & 17 Fire-Shots VS 15 Catapults (510 PUs) & 15 Catapult Shots
Catapult attack win = 72%
Catapult defense win = 0%
Fire-Thrower attack win = 100%
Fire-Thrower defense win =28%
If it was 15 vs 15 then the two machines are actually equal. Catapult best at def, and Fire-Thrower best at attack.
The catapult can destroy factories with bombard damage of 1-7, the Fire thrower only 1-5.
As I see it, the Fire-Thrower is OK and I think more cost effective overall, just not if it is only used to bombard buildings.
6. Dire-Trolls cost 70 PUs at the moment. If they cost 60 PUs, 9 Footmen + 2 Dire-Trolls would be equal in cost and effectiveness the battle calculator to 16 Footmen if attacking. But their big advantage in general is, they they can be brought along in battle as 2-hitpoint units, repairing for free after battle. This in my mind is a HUGE advantage, saving the lives of two units, their HP and strengths. So I am a bit reluctant in nerfing them at the moment, unless there is a huge uproar and demand for this. And if this was so, then ALL 2-hit land unit costs should be reevaluated.
6. Fire-Canoe is not cost effective, and I will lower the cost.
7. Berserkers are not cost effective? I actually disagree a lot. Footmen are 3att/3def 20 Pus. Berserkers are 4 att/2def 20 PUs. Already here many would say that they are superior, as specialized units are always better than flat rate standard units. (One 4att/2def + one 2att/4def will in the long run always win battles over two 3att/3def units. This is because if both parties loose one unit in the first round, the specialized army will be +25% stronger during next battle round, as they choose the weak as casualty) On top of this, the Berserkers have the ability to support 1 standard Footmen unit during attack, making it even more specialized.
8. Skeletons cost. I think the Mana price is fitting, as the Skeletons (and the level skill) also have a great weakness; they can only be build when the Hero is stationary and not really doing anything, or alternatively at the same time as the Hero resurrects at a factory (I think?). But I can see how this unit can be mass spammed at a capital, with the Hero just staying put throughout the game, So I do think that the 5 Mana cost should be supplemented by 5 PUs. Then the unit is like 33% PU cost of Irregulars + Mana. And they can only be created during special conditions. Does it sound reasonable?
9. Spells move 4 only because this is the only way I have been able to make it possible for Heroes to bring them along, if they attack move (via air unit) 4 territories. For technical reasons, spells are Air units, therefore they cannot “board” an air unit mount like balloon or gryphon. At the same time, it would be lame if the Hero could not have his/her spells when flying into attack, right? I would actually prefer spells on their own only had 1 move range, but I just don’t have a solution at the moment that would “fit the whole package” so to speak. If any one learns this map + has the technical skills to come up with a new way to handle spells, I am all ears!
10.“Do you want more observations/suggestions?”
Yes, keep it coming!
Based on this, I think the following changes would be fitting the next version of this map v0.1.3:
• Added more explanation during into, on how to place origin skills.
• The amount of Food availability on the map has been reduced slightly. Gold will be evaluated next, followed by the other resourses.
• Bowmen and Crossbowmen now cost 5 Food, not 10 Food.
• Cavalry now cost 15 Food, not 10 Food.
• Fire-Canoe now cost 20 PUs, not 25 PUs.
• Skeletons now also cost 5 PUs, besides 5 Mana.
Also, I think about these changes:
• Troop-Transport now cost 26 PUs, not 25.
• Submarine now cost 28 PUs, not 30.
• Economic victory at 400 PUs.
• Normal victory at 6 Capitals.
• The Gnomen Spider-Tank can now traverse mountains and rivers. (This would make it a cool very special unit :-P)
• Undead Hero Sevis tooltip spelling error fix (“place by Sevisat at factory”)
I will first have the time to work on changes in like 5-7 days from now, so there is plenty of time to find new issues, do further testing and discus these or other changes. I appreciate all the help and testing, I already see this map imporving!
I really like this, however, I always pick the same three, PUs, Food, Wood, and vary the 4th, but always a unit building resource. Maybe reduce the unit resources to make them less attractive.
Muster Elite Cavalry is way too expensive so I will never buy it.
Another option for spending XP could be for every race to buy one Hero with leadership abilities.
Could they be created where there are woods and no Factory?
My take on Siege Engines is most have an attack and no defence, but the Night Elf Scorpid would have attack and defence.
Manabots, Mana is too expensive, I buy them cause I cannot buy anything else with the mana surplus.
Have 5+1+1=7 unit production centres/Factories, in keeping with other races, Darnassus perhaps to 3, or if you must 4. Night Elves can build a Fleet twice as quick as other races and the sea has a lot of resources. (The Gnomes also have access to 2 ports, but that is countered by the Pirates, in the early game.
I created the Ceremonial Fire, the following turn it disappears and is replaced with 3 wisps. Is this how its supposed to work?
Mountain Giant, is poor value, maybe 75 mana or less? Mana is too expensive, I buy them cause I cannot buy anything else with the mana surplus.
This is an awesome game and Im having loads of fun.
But Sieging the capitals is too easy, they dont feel like sieges.
Would you consider having say walls that must be destroyed first by Siege Engines and bombers?
Maybe degrading the Factory from a 5 to 4 to 3 etc?
Aircraft are too good at Bombing, they can stop a capitals production.
It seems strange that when a capital falls to the enemy it retains its full factory output and the enemy can use it next turn,
A random suggestion
All mana based units could be 'summoned' by casters/heroes instead of appearing at a Factory.
- Spells move 4
I would be happy to have to spells with a range of 1 and suffer the tech penalty. Spells with range 4 just feels so wrong and is open to abuse.
Currently the hero that can fly and cast range 4 is great when you do it, but lousy when used against you.
Thinking more about Spells, would this work?
Make all hero transports carrying capacity 4, so NOT infantry.
Reduce spells to range 1 and can be carried by transport.
So air transport can carry a Hero +3 other "things", including spells.
As an aside, all non transport ships could have a carrying capacity 4, so a hero can travel by sea.
@Frostion & Devs
Although Im playing as Dwarves, checkout the attached file, AI standoff at Orgrimmar. It looks like the AI cannot decode a path? Maybe the AI thinks the air bridge is usable by land units?
When a hero dies can the XP required to resurrect be based on say the current turn x 10 XP, so if its turn 11 and a hero dies, they will have to pay 110 XP to be resurrected.Why, sometime I suicide my hero to get back to a Factory to defend it, bargain for 10XP.
Gunship is poor value compared to Flying Machine. The Gunship should be cheaper.
Mortars needing Gold are spammed and wood is used for Ships.
So Artillery tends not to be bought by Dwarves.
Dryads cannot Blitz, should they be able too?
Origins for AI
Can you hardcode each race's 4 origin choices, yes they would always be the same, but at least they would be used? Unless you can randomly pick them, then I would hardcode 2 and random pick 2.
When I want Factories in an area I spread the Guard Towers around in a few Territories as its cheaper to do so. Perhaps;
Guard Towers cost 30pu 30gold
Fort cost 30pu 25gold
Garrison cost 30pu 20gold
Castle cost 30pu 15gold
This way its cheaper to have addons , rather than spread Guard Towers around?
Arthur, has Def 5, a Power of 5, a higher TUV than other heroes, he needs nerfing, or maybe just start with 4 Footmen to rebalance this?
-Start with a Harbour, a bonus.
-Are not threatened by the enemy, therefore can easily expand.
-They are the easiest to play and be almost anywhere with the Teleporting Gates.
If I'm reading the xml file correctly there is not much difference between all the Artillery, take a Catapult and plus and minus the stats by 1.
I would like to see the following;
-Ballista, range 1, cannot shoot over air-bridges as its direct fire, but its very good v AA, so better than now, cannot perform a raid. Overall this should make it cheaper.
-Catapult, as now, but worse v AA and has a lower Defence.
-Trebuchet, as now, but even worse v AA and has a lower Defence. Movement 0, can be made anywhere.
In the Dwarf list the Undeads Southshore Port appears, it should be in the Undead list.
I would go for 2/3 total PU, so about 450PU. 400 might be too easy to achieve.
Thanks for producing this game!
I will await eagerly for an update.
Suggested starting forces for all.
Reduce the number of Infantry units by 2.
Add 1 Workboat
Add 1 Cavalry
These changes should speed up the initial exploring game play, so that players can get into the meat of the game sooner.
It also adds decision points for the player, how best to use the Cavalry and the Workboat must dodge the Pirates to keep alive.
Elementals & Banshees
Could have a Transport Cost of 99, ie they cannot be Transported.
However they could be Summoned/Placed anywhere, or limited to being placed with Heroes/Casters with Magic Attacks.
TheDog last edited by TheDog
Bowmen and Crossbowmen now cost 5 Food, not 10 Food.
Having played with the Battle Calculator more and played a few games, I think the Bowmen and Crossbowmen are not that bad compared to Footmen, so dont drop the Food to 5, Im thinking more of to 8.
@All ... Here are the changes made for v0.1.3. soon updateable/downloadable via the map downloader:
• Added more explanation during intro, on how to place Hero Origin Skills.
• Players now start with 1 Cavalry + 3 Infantry, not 5 Infantry.
• Sian-tsu's Restoring-Rain no longer heals Sian-tsu +2 HP, it only heals the other Horde Heroes with her.
• Food availability on the map has been reduced a bit.
• Gold availability on the map has been reduced a tiny bit.
• There are now 10+ Supply-Chests on the map for an early game resource boost. (5 PUs / 5 Gold / 5 Food / 5 Wood / 5 Oil)
• Dryads now have a silver horseshoe icon, just like the Knights, as they are “special” variations of Cavalry (The Dryads cannot blitz as normal Cavalry can).
• Stormwind-Port no longer has a golden dot as it does not add any extra protection or production to Stormwind Territory.
• Sevis tooltip spelling error fix (“place by Sevisat at factory”).
• Economic victory set at 450 PUs.
• Normal victory set at 6 Capitals.
• All spells now only have Movement 1, not Movement 4. (Unfortunately, spells can no longer be transported into battle further away. Any XML-help to fix this would be appreciated! I have not yet figured out a system where spells work as they do now + follow the Hero 1-4 moves. Note that spells are currently Air-units, so that they may not capture land territories by their own.)
• All spells can now hit sea units.
• Gryphon-Transport is now 3Att/3Def, not 2Att/2Def.
• The Gyrocopter no longer has bombing capability.
• Mortar, Fire-Thrower and Scorpid stats changed a bit.
• All buildable Factory upgrades now cost less than their larger upgrades (So that one large factory, capable of building 2 units, is cheaper than a two small factories, capable of building 1 unit each).
• Cavalry now cost more food. Raised from 10 to 15 Food.
• Skeletons now also cost 5 PUs, besides 5 Mana.
• Spider-Tank can now traverse mountains and rivers (Airways) as the only Land Unit.
• Fire-Canoe now cost 20 PUs, not 24 PUs.
• Various minor cost changes and other changes.
Bombing and Factory HP system redone/changes:
• All Capitals will now be set on fire when lost to the enemy. They will need to be repaired before any units may be built there by the conqueror.
o Now a Factory with 1 golden dot has 1 HP and a unit with a bombing value of 0-1 will deal 0-1 damage, a unit with bombing value of 0-2 will deal 0-2 damage, etc.
o Before, all factories had 5-25 HP / 1 HP cost 5 PUs to repair / Factories could produce as long as 1-5 HP was undamaged.
o Now, all factories have 1-5 HP / 1 HP cost 25 PUs to repair / Factories can produce 1 unit per 1 undamaged HP. Overall, Factories are now more easily destroyed/disabled, but there is now a risc of a bombardment shot not doing any damage at all.
New bombingMaxDieSides unit stats:
Lightning-Spell__0-1__________(Only Orc Hero)
Dynamite________0-1__________(Only 1 Hero on map)
Fire-Thrower_____0-1__________(Undead special unit)
Gunship__________0-1__________(Dwarven special air unit)
Mortar___________0-1___________(Dwarven special art. unit)
Bombard__________0-3__________(Only 1 unit on map)
Thanks for all your input! I have addressed a lot of what you have mentioned. But furthermore I would like to comment on some of the stuff that is not directly changed, or stuff that cannot work like you imagine it to. For your information, there are many ideas (some I see we share) that I have not, from start, been able to implement as I wanted. There are some engine limitations that we are working within.
Elementals & Banshees: These cannot just be placed/summoned anywhere the Hero might be. Just like I have not been able to make Skeletons be created anywhere the Hero might be. This is because, it might work “anywhere” within player-owned territories, like the homelands of the player. But it does not work when the Hero is on allied soil, as only the owner of a territory may build in Factories here. So this limits possibilities.
Hero vs Hero balance and streghths: This is a tough one! One thing is clear, we cannot just take the 8 starting level 1 Heroes and have them made “equally strong”. And the skills they get are very different. Some are very self empowering, while others are supporting others. Some are resource generation while others are pets or summoned creatures. I have tried to balance out the final outcome of level 8 players, but they are still very different and not all are equal in 1 on 1 combat. I think the map has to be played many many times before we really see if adjustments are needed. But you are doing your part I see
I hope you will test out the new simplified siege system:
• Is it comprehensible?
• Is there really a choice between bombarding the enemy factory OR choosing to go head on, taking the extra casualties?
As you have noticed: “AI cannot decode a path? Maybe the AI thinks the air bridge is usable by land units?” The AI has issues with the Airways, and sometimes AI stacks up units as it thinks it can pass. This makes especially The Horde kind of passive and sitting at their capitals. (@Devs ... HELP! ) Maybe you would like to run a game where you control all Human Horde vs all AI Alliance? (If so you could run the Alliance turn 1, 5, 10 etc. so that they may purchase Origins, Veterans and Elites)
I thought I had a few days off, that was a fast update.
It will take a few days to take it all in.
The Devs have made a few AI changes, Im hoping the Horde AI plays a bit better now.
(Unfortunately, spells can no longer be transported into battle further away. Any XML-help to fix this would be appreciated! I have not yet figured out a system where spells work as they do now + follow the Hero 1-4 moves. Note that spells are currently Air-units, so that they may not capture land territories by their own.)**
If the program would work correctly, as I understand it, you could assure this for any "suicide" unit by just making the unit an infrastructure.
This way, you could send any suicide infrastructure in battle alone or with one or more other units, thus keeping the current behaviour, while making them unable to conquer any territories.
I know that the program would cause the infrastructure to be captured before any battle if alone and would also sometimes allow infrastructures alone to conquer undefended territories, but both these behaviours are wrong.
If spells are suicide and infrastructures, it is a wrong behaviour of the program that it cannot attack alone, as the step when the infrastructure would be captured is after every step in which it may make any fire and also after the step in which it would be removed as suicide.
If spells are infrastructures, it is a wrong (ad inconsistent) behaviour of the program that non-blitzing infrastructures can capture empty territories alone. Since the "combat" infrastructure behaviour captures the pre-v5 aaGun behaviour, such a unit is removed from the battle before reaching the step for capturing the territory, so, obviously, cannot do such a thing. What else should happen, however, is opinionable.
I'm just saying that, if infrastructures working correctly would solve your problem, instead of trying to work around it, I guess you can ask the developers to fix the issues. This would also fix other games like D1914NML, where the "gas" should be able to attack alone (under my interpretation of the rules).
CC. @Panther for what recalls the basic rules sets.
I had my worst game yet, actually it was my best, random placement seemed against me, some of my attacks failed when I thought I should have won, The Pirates kept avoiding me and would not die, the Orcs did 2 sneak attacks, I was up against it, it was fab. I did not get a chance to use siege a capital, in fact I did not get close.
No races had Origins, this makes it fair for all.
Resource Modifiers - NONE, yes none
Played as Gnomes for all turns.
Played all races at turns 7, 15, 21 to spend XP, Veteran and Elite points, and tried to steer the AI into moving units.
The Undead in the Undercity on turns 15 and 21 I tried to move them left and then right of the Undercity the AI just moved them back to the Undercity on the following turns. So the AI is not fixed.
Taureans in Thunder Bluff have 26 units on turn 26, why?
The Orc AI played a blinder of a game, 2 sneak attacks on the Gnomes, I was wrong footed twice, Look how badly defended Orgrimmar is, just like a player would leave it.
All Bowmen and Crossbowmen Suggest Food 9, so they dont compete with Foot who also need 10 food.
Human Priests AI does not produce them even though they have 150 Mana, maybe they cost too much PU ?
Gnome Sub is fantastic for the gold cost, maybe it should cost more?
Hero does not have Mount at level 5, "All Heroes receive a 2 Movement Mount at level 5." It has a shape change that can move 3 and an Owl at a higher level.
Kodo Tower is too expensive 120pu, I know it moves 2 and has 2HP, the Dwarf Gunship has a great stat line and moves 4. I would lower its stats to get lower pu cost.
TheDog last edited by TheDog
Started as Trolls, but by turn 5, the Undead AI had stacked too many units at the capital, so I took over and played both Undead & Trolls.
Same as the first game, no Origins and no Race Modifiers.Played all races at turns 8, 15.
The Air Bridge issue needs to be fixed, look at the Taureans crowding up against their homeland rim.
-Nautical-Charts does not give +2 movement (or does it if the Hero is on a Transport?)
-Oh my! Just had Long-Range-Artillery for the first time, its a bit good. Maybe make 3 of them, one for each of the main types of artillery.
450 Pu to Alliance - I did not see a message to the effect, but I was playing Horde.
6 Capitals - Get a message, with an option to continue.
Treasure Air-Balloon Tran=3
Human Airship Tran=5, could be Move 3
Dwarves Flying-Machine Tran=0
Dwarves Gunship Tran=0
Gnomes Gyrocopter Tran=0
Night-Elves Hippogryph Tran=2, could be Move 3
Orc Wind-Hexer Tran=0
Orc Zeppelin Tran=5, could be Move 3
Undead Gargoyles Tran=0
Treasure Gryphon-Transport Tran=2, could be Move 3
Move 4 is way too good for air Transports, it almost makes Ship transports redundant, they are very versatile and fast and their cargo can capture territory. So I'm thinking all air transports should have a Move of 3?
Pre cannon age, artillery tended to be built on the site of the siege.
I'm going to repeat my hope that Trebuchets can be built in a territory that you own and cannot move, so can be placed without a Factory.
Catapults can be built in any territory that you own and can move 1, and can be placed without a Factory.This gives them a distinction, as of now they are too similar.
My current thinking is all artillery is too good, but I have only really used it in one game, so Im thinking they should have a PU increase. But maybe all artillery should have Defence 3, then cavalry have a chance to Blitz attack it?
I dont think ships have an anti air defence, they should, it seems too easy to take out shipping by air, just put 3 flyers on one Warship, it tends to die.
Losing a Capital
This is a great change and expensive to rebuild.
In short dont lose your capital.
Gnome Spider-Tank, shiney, a great little climber (forgot to mention it the previous game)
Trolls Fire Canoe - I tried to use them, the AI just danced around them with their 2 movement ships, the Fire Canoe is just not viable with movement of 1.- could make them move 2 and true suicide, ie explode on contact.
Trolls Dire Troll - gold cost needs to be dearer, its too cheap
Air Force, Trolls and Taureans dont have an air force, this is a big disadvantage, as air power is very versatile and can quickly tip a fight in your favour, because of move 4.
The AI will not place Skeletons that have already been over bought but not placed, even though the hero and factory are present.
Sorcerer - Replace Gold cost with Mana (only because they are casters)
Gargoyle - Replace Mana cost with Gold
Sorcerer 35 60 v Banshee 35 50 cost - Banshee appears to have a better stat line yet are cheaper than Sorcerer?
Me and @SilverBullet tried to play this in lobby but gave up after more than 5 minutes stuck on launching screen. I was hosting and no error.
@TheDog Nice feedback. I will soon study it thoroughly and respond!
@Cernel because the AI has some inbuilt "pauses" that cannot just be bypassed by the map/XML, the map start-up is long, unless you manually set the AI pause duration to 0. This is also stated in the pop-up during map start-up. I don't know if this AI pause duration can be done when you start up a lobby game?
@Frostion As I said, it was more than 5 minutes with no game progressing. Have you tried to play the game online with another user? If not, I suggest you try to. You don't need to join the lobby if the other user joins your host by direct connection. I wonder if this game can be played online at all.
@Cernel No I haven’t played it online or LAN. I guess there are some issues with the startup procedure / AI picking territories and thereafter placing a bunch of other units.
Did the AI picking of territories even start when you hosted? And is it even possible to go to settings as host and set AI pause duration to 0 ms?
This map issue is of high (second) most important to resolve as it maybe make multiplayer impossible.
The most important issue to resolve is the AIs inability to handle lad territory canals with unit type restrictions. (I wonder if the AI actually has the same issue when using sea territory canals. Can it not see/handle that some specific units may not go through a canal? Do the sea units that are restricted from going through a canal stack up at the entrance?)
Orc Zeppelin and Human Airship
For the cost are way too good, they have a general purpose stat line 3 3 4 and can carry a unit.
Im thinking the stat line should be 2 2 2
So all air transports should be move 2, they can still hop over enemy units in a territory, fly over mountain ranges(air bridges), fly over the sea and 3 of them can still deliver 3 units deep into enemy territory by flying over the sea.
This will then bring all flyers with no transport down to move 3 including Taurean Owl-Form.
Currently Taurean Owl-Form is OP, fly 5 to an enemy capital, kill the defenders and repeat, game over.