How would you rate countries and territories considering realism in big WWII maps.
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One of the things that is shared amongst all TripleA maps having Italy (be it v3, World At War or Total World War, etc.) is the tendency to make Italy unrealistically way over-productive, actually by several times. This is surprising to me, especially considering the Italian performance during WW2; I would rather guess people would tend to undervalue it!
But, really, going back to those HoI4 values, there is no way that, if Germany is 70, Italy can be 50, or Romania 22. Those are really either nonsense or the developers wanted to maybe allow for the game to go in some some directions, giving more options, to do something ahistorical for fun, when playing the less fortunate. If you consider that (data from my period atlas) Romania was 19.646 millions in January 1938 and Germany was 79.730 millions in May 1939 (with Austria, Sudetenland and Memel, but without Bohemia-Moravia and Danzig), that would go down to 69.777 millions, if you cut Austria and Sudetenland out (as per 1936), those HoI4 values would imply that a Romanian person was individually more productive/valuable/militarily capable than a German person, that is obviously unacceptable.
I really don't think that those values (HoI4) are defensible under any perspective. Still, in my personally opinion, they are better than what you see in most TripleA maps; so not saying they are worthless of consideration.
EDIT: Unless those values are representing the armed forces in 1936, that in TripleA terms would be the TUV (not the production). Then, in that case, it may be fine, since Germany started almost from 0 (still I'm not buying Romania). I'm really not understanding if this is the case or not. Are we talking about "production" or "total unit value" for those HoI4 numbers?
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Italian performance during wwii is not considered because Italy could have performed better.
Italy had also bigger surface fleet than Germany and it directly affect Italian power so if you look only manpower UK should be weaker than Italy since UK had very small army compared to other major combatants.
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These factories are related to production not TUV. I have no idea too why some of them is very unhistorical especially Dutch East Indies and India. But Dutch East indies is represented very rich in terms of raw materials since I had ignored it.
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Looking at the population figures from the Maddison database (which are more reliable than the GDP figures) it seems that the HOI designer was using approximately 1 million people equals 1 point of capacity for European nations. That is a reasonable approach to assigning capability. Then you can ask how much should colonies and impoverished nations be discounted.
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Colonies (not dominions) are generally very undervalued in the game but they provide enormous natural resources and huge manpower to their masters and its historical too. Japan Invaded Dutch colonies for resources not getting factories/industries.
Since resources are not represented in Triplea, there is nothing wrong to give more value to these colonies.
Giving coefficients to each factory types; 1936 values look something like this. Some of them are unacceptable for me too...
USA 241.16
USSR 109.68
UK 96.5
Germany 93.8
Jap 82.7
China 80.78
France 72.74
Italy 68.58
Poland 36.28
Brazil 33.56
Czechoslovakia 33
Romania 30.06
Canada 26.28
Netherlands 25.84
Yugoslavia 25.78
India 24.78
Australia 24.06
Belgium 24.00
Hungary 21.00
Bulgaria 18.00
Greece 17.78
Denmark 16.06
Austria 16.5
Finland 15.28
Mexico 15
South Africa 14.5
Norway 12.78
Latvia 8.78
Philippines 8.5
Thaiand 8.5
Manchukuo 7.5
Iran 7
Lithuania 7
New Zealand 7
Cuba 5.5
Dominican Republic 5.5
Estonia 5.5
Luxembourg 5.5
Mongolia 5.5
Ethiopia 5
Dutch East Indies 4.78
Albania 4
Costa Rica 4
El Salvador 4
Guatemala 4
Haiti 4
Honduras 4
Iraq 4
Nicaragua 4
Panama 4
Liberia 2.5
Oman 2.5
Tannu Tuva 2.5
British Malaya 1.5USSR, India, Iran, Dutch East Indies, Britis Malaya should be more values whereas Brazil, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia should be slighly less valuable.
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@Schulz Yeah, Dutch East Indies is still crap, the Italians are still more productive/valuable (per capita) than the Germans, Brazil is still stronger than Canada and such. Sorry, I really don't feel like those are very good referring values to start with.
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We have no obligation to stick all values. If you decrease Italian power drastically,she becomes unplayable and making Italy separate country would make it unplayable. In this scenario Italy could be represented as part of Germany only.
Germany will capture all occupied territories income without penalty (which is unrealistic) in Triplea maps. When France and Western Europe fall, German/Italian ratio becomes closer to more realistic.
It is actually better to compare 1941 Germany vs 1941 Italy rather than early dates.
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We have to count foreign aids as domestis production (power) regardless of country and for example there is really nothing wrong in depicting Italy stronger than she was because Germany had deployed 15 divisons and hundred of planes, armours, trucks etc in North Africa.
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@Schulz Any particular reasons why, in a map with Germans and Italians, you would want those German units and assets being represented by Italian production, units or assets, instead?
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Because not counting German assets, supplies, helps etc... as Italian would make impossible to take Egypy for Axis since the Germans and Italians would be unable to attack together the British units. That does not really make sense.
I don't know did the Germans supply Italians in terms of resources? Sure they should all take into account as Italian domestic productions.
Also US lend lease should be represented as British-Soviet domestic productions.
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@Schulz It is an over simplification to say that some measure of a countries wealth (eg. PU) gained by support from an Ally is inherently contained within the production of a territory without factoring that into the production value of the "parent" state(s). More over this idea assumes a constant, consistant and stable supply of resources or manpower every turn. Finally, what happens when the territory is lost? Does the enemy gain the bonus PU each turn? Is this to say the Germans would continue to send men and equipment to Southern Italy and simply hand it over to the Allies? Because if you add PU to Italian territories with this in mind... then theoretically that is what you are saying is happening.
"A joyous heart sours with the burden of expectation"
Hepster -
@Schulz If simply abstracting such things, I would rather suggest having triggers removing/adding income, under the condition of both capitals being free (or something), rather than screwing up actual production values. Italy had virtually no iron, no copper, no coal, no oil, etc. (like, France had over 20 times the iron extraction of Italy and Germany had almost 200 times the carbon production of Italy); so it had to import all from Germany controlled territories, but I don't know how much Italy paid back (also in terms of sending workforce (temporary emigrants) in the German mines, etc., that happened also before the war).
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@Hepps said in How would you rate countries and territories considering realism in big WWII maps.:
@Schulz It is an over simplification to say that some measure of a countries wealth (eg. PU) gained by support from an Ally is inherently contained within the production of a territory without factoring that into the production value of the "parent" state(s). More over this idea assumes a constant, consistant and stable supply of resources or manpower every turn. Finally, what happens when the territory is lost? Does the enemy gain the bonus PU each turn? Is this to say the Germans would continue to send men and equipment to Southern Italy and simply hand it over to the Allies? Because if you add PU to Italian territories with this in mind... then theoretically that is what you are saying is happening.
If German helps should not be considered as Italian then this rule should be applied to Commonwealth nations too. Canadian and British troops should not be able to attack Germany together for example.
I think the best solution is calculating the exact German helps to the Italians then adding this extra Pus value to Northern Italy. (Or spreading all Italian territories) But if people want to make North African campaign more important then this extra values can be added to Tunisia. It would be also historical too.
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Also I don't think capital cities would represent realism. Soviets wouldn't have collapsed without Moscow.
Making Rome as captal of Italy does not make sense. Northern Italy or Sicily would be better. But I would still prefer removing capitals in a realistic scenario.
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I've found another methot to calculate the relatiive values of countries; Just want to share some countries. In this time I have taken into account resources and Indonesia emerged more valuable what do you think?
1939
USA: 370.352
Germany; 187.63
Slovakia: 4.67
Hungary: 31.24
Indonesia: 25.58 -
I'm so sad this thread is seems like abandoned.
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@Schulz I have been cleaning up the new version of the Correlates of War database, which has some interesting data.
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Would it be possible to rate realistic army positionings for may 1942?
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@Schulz Check out this site West Point Military History Atlas
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WW1 Datas but it has to be remembered that with a realistic 1914 scenario, Allies overall income shoul still be reduced not just because of balance purpose, because the stats do not show some CP advantages like being able to rapidly shift troops from one to another, isolated Russia with Ottomans entry into war, British naval/colonial expenses and American unpreparedness etc...
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