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    • RogerCooperR Offline
      RogerCooper @Cernel
      last edited by

      @Cernel Ellis gives 4,000 US aircraft in Dec 1941, so 2,500 seems reasonable for 1939.

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      • RogerCooperR Offline
        RogerCooper @Frostion
        last edited by

        @Frostion There are conceptual problems for any type of count. Consider for the US today, should you count the Reserves, the National Guard or the Coast Guard as being part of the military manpower? Do you include mothballed ships & aircraft?

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        • RogerCooperR Offline
          RogerCooper
          last edited by RogerCooper

          Here is some figures from John Ellis, World War II, A Statistical Survey for Military Manpower at entry to the war.

          0_1544280387771_8b05b6ca-028b-418a-8e73-b5c5dac8e5fe-image.png Country Manpower on Entry into War
          Albania 13,000
          Australia 91,700
          Belgium 600,000
          Bulgaria 160,000
          Canada 63,100
          China 2,500,000
          Denmark 6,600
          Finland 127,800
          France 900,000
          Germany 3,180,000
          Greece 430,000
          Hungary 80,000
          India 197,000
          Italy 1,899,600
          Japan 1,700,000
          Netherlands 270,000
          New Zealand 13,800
          Norway 25,000
          Poland 1,200,000
          Rumania 686,000
          South Africa 19,000
          UK 681,000
          USA 5,413,000
          USSR 9,000,000
          Yugoslavia 150,000

          C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • RogerCooperR Offline
            RogerCooper
            last edited by

            Check this blog post by veteran wargame designer Frank Chadwick on the economic model for his game ETO.

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            • C Offline
              Cernel Moderators Lobby Moderators @RogerCooper
              last edited by

              @RogerCooper I've no idea what he means there with military manpower?

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              • C Offline
                Cernel Moderators Lobby Moderators @RogerCooper
                last edited by Cernel

                @RogerCooper Do you have figures about the various merchant marines in mid 1942? I have data for before the various countries joined the conflict (like 1940 or before), but not much thereafter.

                I mean transports in general, summing merchant, supply, troopships, tankers, etc.. Not those that were being employed as merchant ones at the moment. Like the total tonnage of all transport ships, regardless of current commercial/military use (or absence thereof).

                RogerCooperR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • RogerCooperR Offline
                  RogerCooper @Cernel
                  last edited by

                  @Cernel Ellis's book covers starting numbers, casualties & production of merchant ships. I will work out some figures.

                  RogerCooperR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • RogerCooperR Offline
                    RogerCooper @RogerCooper
                    last edited by

                    @RogerCooper Here are Merchant Marine figures derived from Ellis, with some extrapolation and assumptions. Figures are in 1,000's of tons. Note that there are no figures on German merchant losses and production, so I just extended the 1939 figure. Note that the US produced an incredible number of ships in 1943, 11,448,000 tons.

                    c2a6b93f-fc89-4996-b4d8-d926ce8c1900-image.png Country 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946
                    Belgium 408 398 342 285 220 198 193 191
                    Commonwealth 3111 3068 2653 2303 2495 3247 3864 3975
                    Denmark 1175 1145 983 820 632 568 555 551
                    France 2934 2859 2455 2047 1578 1419 1386 1375
                    Germany 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483
                    Greece 1881 1833 1574 1312 1011 1011 988 980
                    Italy 3425 3338 3186 2569 2201 1497 1463 1451
                    Japan 5308 5493 5787 5845 5040 3989 1797 615
                    Netherlands 2970 2894 2485 2072 1597 1436 1403 1392
                    UK 17189 17381 15750 14318 12309 12207 12845 13138
                    USA 8910 9286 9815 10847 13842 23897 32635 38217

                    C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                    • C Offline
                      Cernel Moderators Lobby Moderators @RogerCooper
                      last edited by Cernel

                      @RogerCooper This may be a good reference, but I think there are some major problems with those data, that need to be addressed:

                      • As there is only the year, are those the values at the start of the year? Measures of flux, like losses and production, would refer to a whole year, but measures of stock would be a point in that year. For example, to obtain the start 1943 stock of ships you would need to sum the 1942, but not the 1943, gains and losses.

                      • It is not clarified what these "tons" are. Are they "gross register tons" (in this case, not actually weight, but volume), or something else, and, in this case, are they metric, British or US American (if any differences)? Are they all the same metre or just the figure for each country, in the tonnage metre used in that particular country? I also wonder if all the countries in the world, at that time, used to define tonnage the same way, or there were differences.

                      • Do they include all ships, or some ships above some minimum tonnage, and how about ships locked in lakes that do not connect to the sea (mainly the Great Lakes merchant fleet of the USA)?

                      • (as you say) The figure for Germany is simply the one of 1939 (I would rather leave the entries for the following years empty).

                      • It is missing Norway (that, according to my data, was the 4th biggest merchant navy in the world, in 1939).

                      • It doesn't specify if it does or doesn't include the losses from interned or captured ships or the gains from captured ships. In particular, the case of France, going through the armistice, the civil war, the undeclared war with the Allies (mostly Britain), the cessation of the armistice and the occupation of Free France, and the case of Italy, that lost a great quantity (about 1/3 of the total tonnage) of ships (interned), right after declaring war on France and Great Britain.


                      These are the 1939 only values, from an atlas originally printed in 1945:

                      Merchant Navies given in "tonnage", that I assume being what is now defined as "gross register tonnage", in cubic feets, tho I'm not sure about any of this, as it is not clarified. Also, it is not clarified if these are actually the values at the start of 1939.

                      Country Merchant Navy tonnage*, in 1,000 tons, in 1939
                      United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 17,984
                      United States of America 11,874
                      Japan 5,630
                      Norway 4,835
                      Germany 4,493
                      Italy 3,448
                      France 2,953
                      Low Countries 2,933
                      Greece 1,781
                      Sweden 1,582
                      Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics 1,316
                      Canada 1,305
                      Denmark 1,176
                      Spain 914
                      Panama 718
                      Finland 626
                      Belgium 408
                      Portugal 269

                      *including only ships of over 100 tons each

                      In the data above, there is not an entry for Commonwealth, that I assume it means the Dominions, and the only British Dominion present is Canada. So, I wonder about that Commonwealth figure, that is almost three times the one I have for Canada only (also wonder about how much of that is in the Great Lakes).

                      The only data that is over 10% away from your 1939 data is the one for the United States of America, that I've at 11,874, while you are giving at 8,910, I wonder if this may be because of not taking into account the Great Lakes fleet or maybe because of a different metre.

                      C RogerCooperR 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • C Offline
                        Cernel Moderators Lobby Moderators @Cernel
                        last edited by

                        @Cernel In particular, at start 1942, the value for France should be split between the ones under Vichy control, the ones under Free French control (or are they counted as British?) and the ones interned (no idea how much impactful).

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                        • RogerCooperR Offline
                          RogerCooper @Cernel
                          last edited by

                          @Cernel The numbers are for the start of the year. My source, (Ellis, World War II, A Statistical Survey), does not specify anything else about the numbers.The omission of Norway was my error.

                          0f0e0bfc-112d-4b53-9bc5-66c56636f95a-image.png Country 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946
                          Belgium 408 398 345 292 229 207 202 200
                          Commonwealth 3111 3073 2685 2361 2570 3329 3948 4060
                          Denmark 1175 1147 995 841 659 596 583 579
                          France 2934 2864 2485 2101 1646 1490 1457 1446
                          Germany 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483 4483
                          Greece 1881 1836 1593 1347 1055 1055 1032 1024
                          Italy 3425 3343 3191 2574 2206 1502 1469 1458
                          Japan 5308 5501 5795 5853 5048 3997 1805 623
                          Netherlands 2970 2899 2515 2126 1666 1508 1475 1464
                          Norway 1987 1940 1683 1423 1115 1009 987 979
                          UK 17189 17408 15928 14653 12753 12678 13318 13610
                          USA 8910 9286 9815 10847 13980 24099 32856 38446

                          I have no figures on captured and interned ships. A loss of a third seems reasonable, but the overall effect is small compared to wartime production.

                          C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • C Offline
                            Cernel Moderators Lobby Moderators @RogerCooper
                            last edited by

                            @RogerCooper Well, ok, 4,835 vs 1,987, that is less than half of the value I have, instead.

                            I found this article on the Norwegians:

                            https://pressto.amu.edu.pl/index.php/fsp/article/viewFile/3613/3645

                            In the summer of 1939 the Norwegian merchant fleet had 4 833 813 BRT[1] of tonnage and was classified in fourth place in the world, just after Britain, the United States and Japan (Steen 1959:111).

                            1. BRT (Brutto Register Tonne) it is a measure of vessel capacity counted in register tonnes. 1 registered tonne = 100 cubic feet = 2,83 m3.

                            So, I think, if that article is correct, either your data is wrong or there have to be something going on there, in the way it is measured?

                            Also, as I said, it is lame when a source (mine too) doesn't specifically exactly state what kind of tons or tonnage it is talking about. 1 gross ton in ww2 was 100 cubic feet, but a ton can also be a weight measurement for "displacement tons" and "deadweight tons" and, in this case, it can be either a British, an American or a metric ton.

                            As I said, I don't know how Ellis gets the figures, but Italy lost over 1 million tons of merchant ships in 1940, so that figure for start 1941 must be wrong by about 1 million. Also, no idea about how it calculates for after 1943, since, after the surrender, the Italian merchant marine was partly destroyed or captured by the Germans, and only a portion remained under Italian control (now co-belligerent with the United Nations).

                            So, that figure is some helpful, but it still has a number of question marks. Something more precise would be needed, for knowing exactly what were the merchant marines in 1942 or so.

                            RogerCooperR 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • SchulzS Offline
                              Schulz
                              last edited by Schulz


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                              • SchulzS Offline
                                Schulz
                                last edited by Schulz


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                                • RogerCooperR Offline
                                  RogerCooper @Cernel
                                  last edited by

                                  @Cernel Ellis just lists the 1939 values and specifically invites the readers to extrapolate from the sinking & building figures.

                                  For Italy, I simply calculated Italy as a member of the Allies in 1944 & 1945.

                                  Ellis puts Axis shipping losses in the Med 187,000 for 1940.

                                  ghostroninG 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • ghostroninG Offline
                                    ghostronin @RogerCooper
                                    last edited by

                                    Thought this group would find this post interesting, see link below:

                                    https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/anflpp/oc_western_allies_air_missions_through_world_war/

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                                    • RogerCooperR Offline
                                      RogerCooper
                                      last edited by

                                      Here are some more detailed manpower statistics from Ellis. Note that Japan does not fare badly in terms of total numbers:

                                      9f47ab48-1d08-4e78-9837-9133bea7adba-image.png Country Manpower on Entry into War End of War Peak Number
                                      Albania 13,000 13,000
                                      Australia 91,700 575,100 575,100
                                      Belgium 600,000 650,000 650,000
                                      Bulgaria 160,000 45,000 45,000
                                      Canada 63,100 759,800 759,800
                                      China 2,500,000 5,000,000 5,700,000
                                      Denmark 6,600 6,600
                                      Finland 127,800 270,000 270,000
                                      France 900,000 437,000 2,680,000
                                      Germany 3,180,000 7,800,000 9,500,000
                                      Greece 430,000 430,000
                                      Hungary 80,000 210,000 210,000
                                      India 197,000 2,159,700 2,159,700
                                      Italy 1,899,600 259,100 2,563,000
                                      Japan 1,700,000 7,200,000 7,200,000
                                      Netherlands 270,000 400,000 400,000
                                      New Zealand 13,800 192,800 192,800
                                      Norway 25,000 25,000
                                      Poland 1,200,000 250,000 250,000
                                      Rumania 686,000 370,000 370,000
                                      South Africa 19,000 198,000
                                      UK 681,000 4,683,000 4,683,000
                                      USA 5,413,000 11,877,000 11,877,000
                                      USSR 9,000,000 12,400,000 13,200,000
                                      Yugoslavia 150,000 800,000 800,000

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                                      • RogerCooperR Offline
                                        RogerCooper
                                        last edited by

                                        I have added total mobilized:

                                        35360048-954c-449f-984e-7a611e94440c-image.png Country Manpower on Entry into War End of War Peak Number Total Mobilized
                                        Albania 13,000 13,000 13,000
                                        Australia 91,700 575,100 575,100 993,000
                                        Belgium 600,000 650,000 650,000 900,000
                                        Bulgaria 160,000 450,000 450,000 1,011,000
                                        Canada 63,100 759,800 759,800 1,100,000
                                        China 2,500,000 5,000,000 5,700,000 14,000,000
                                        Denmark 6,600 6,600 6,600
                                        Finland 127,800 270,000 270,000 270,000
                                        France 900,000 437,000 2,680,000 2,680,000
                                        Germany 3,180,000 7,800,000 9,500,000 17,900,000
                                        Greece 430,000 540,000 540,000
                                        Hungary 80,000 210,000 210,000 210,000
                                        India 197,000 2,159,700 2,159,700 2,581,800
                                        Italy 1,899,600 259,100 2,563,000 2,563,000
                                        Japan 1,700,000 7,200,000 7,200,000 9,100,000
                                        Netherlands 270,000 400,000 400,000 400,000
                                        New Zealand 13,800 192,800 192,800 192,800
                                        Norway 25,000 25,000 90,000
                                        Poland 1,200,000 250,000 250,000 2,400,000
                                        Rumania 686,000 370,000 1,225,000 1,225,000
                                        South Africa 19,000 198,000 250,000
                                        UK 681,000 4,683,000 4,683,000 5,896,000
                                        USA 5,413,000 11,877,000 11,877,000 16,354,000
                                        USSR 9,000,000 12,400,000 13,200,000 13,200,000
                                        Yugoslavia 150,000 800,000 800,000 1,500,000

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