Total World War: December 1941 3.0.0.6

Hepps

Some good discussion going on here in regards to the new and exciting naval rules...

I like some of what I see but I fear that changing things to completely nullify the Subs advantage is a step in the direction of making them utterly useless once more.

The entire idea around these changes has been to create a more dramatic and dynamic.

If Destroyers are given the ability to "hunt" Subs while on defense... as well as the "flyover" ability... it is returning Subs to a non-existent role.

Currently when I am seeing Sub spams... they are definitely a threat... and are nearly impossible to destroy outright... but they are generally not a threat to large naval groups as they are increasingly vulnerable to air cover. More over... as per the design... building fleets with large numbers of Subs is also highly detrimental to the fleet as the fleet becomes very vulnerable to attack unless the Subs are offered up purely as fodder (thus eliminating them as a threat since they have to be kept surfaced and used as casualties to salvage the fleet... or they submerge and the fleet gets decimated).

All that being said I do agree the perfect balance has yet to be achieved.

So here is where my designs were/are going...

Destroyer Att 3 / Def 3 / move 2 / Att Depth Charge vs Sub 2
Improved Destroyers (tech) +1 to Depth Charge Att.
Advanced Destroyers (tech) Att 5 / Def 5 / Mvt 2 / Att Depth Charge vs Subs 4

All Depth Charge value changes will be the same for Strat. Bombers.

Submarine Att 3 / Def 1 / Mvt 2 / Surprise First strike / Negative support with surface fleet (-2 Def) 1:1 basis
Improved Subs (tech) +1 support to allied Sub on Att & Def 1:1 basis
Advanced Sub (tech) Att 5 / Def 3 / Mvt 2 / Surprise First Strike / Negative support with surface fleet (-2 Def) 1:1 basis

beelee

@Hepps

even though I do things a little different, I've come to pretty much the same conclusions. Having Air being able to hit them seems to really help balance things out.

They seem most effective raiding convoy zones and whacking solo DDs that were unsuccessful in their sub attacks.

They also make guarding trprts a higher priority since they can't be blocked.

Anyway is cool to see your new subs getting some action : )

redrum

@Hepps Looks pretty good and close to my option #3 above. Here are my only questions on it:

Improved Destroyers feels a bit weak. Probably only worth going for if your enemies are massing subs. My thought was make destroyers only start with 1 DC and it would increase from 1 to 3 to make it a more important tech.
Improved Subs is an interesting idea though doesn't appear to be possible in the current engine as units will support themselves. So I guess the closest alternative would be to give subs +1A/+1D.
Advanced Subs, Given #2, the closest alternative here would be to make them 6A/4D.

redrum

@ubernaut The fix for UK L&L Truck in Soviet Far East will be in v3.0.0.3.

Hepps

@redrum Ok thanks for testing that. Perhaps we should add some notes to POS2 letting people know that a lone unit will support itself.

In light of this here is an alternative to the proposed changes...

Destroyer Att 3 / Def 3 / move 2 / Att Depth Charge vs Sub 1
Improved Destroyers (tech) +2 to Depth Charge Att (3 total)
Advanced Destroyers (tech) Att 5 / Def 5 / Mvt 2 / Att Depth Charge vs Subs 4

All Depth Charge value changes will be the same for Strat. Bombers.

Submarine Att 3 / Def 1 / Mvt 2 / Surprise First strike / Negative support with surface fleet (-2 Def) 1:1 basis
Improved Subs (tech) +1 to Att. & Def (4/2/2)
Advanced Sub (tech) Att 5 / Def 3 / Mvt 2 / Surprise First Strike / Negative support with surface fleet (-2 Def) 1:1 basis

ubernaut

i dont understand how the negative support with surface fleet attribute works. does that apply to any other ship? so a sub plus destroyer would now have a cumulative defense of 1 or sub plus transport would now be negative or just 0 i suppose?

doesn't really seem like a sub should make other ships weaker on defense, at least to me. i understand the fodder issue but frankly, the way things are now if you really want fodder you can still do it with transports cant you? and DD's at 1 pu more seems like there would be no reason to include subs in any fleet which doesn't seem very realistic either.

Hepps

@ubernaut No... if you pair Subs with any other surface vessel... the Subs receives -2 to its defense.

So if 1 Sub and 1 Destroyer (of the same nation or alliance) share a sea zone... and that sea zone is attacked... the Destroyer would still defend at 3... however the Sub would have a defense of 0 (technically 1 Def- 2 fleet penalty = -1). So essentially Subs are rendered useless defensively until you get Advanced Subs.

This has been done to reduce the ability of a player to create a fleet with massed Subs to use as defensive cover as had been seen in earlier versions of TWW. Since Subs are now elusive "creatures" who's strength is meant to lie in their ability to travel undetected and attack at will... I really wanted to make them useful as an offensive and harrassment unit and near worthless as a defender. This was also done because of the changes where they can submerge at will and can no longer be blocked... I was trying to make a unit with advantages and drawbacks.

ubernaut

@Hepps what about adding a weak DC to BB and CR?

redrum

So after some discussion here would be the changes for v3.0.0.3:

Update ImprovedDestroyer tech from DepthCharge 2 (+1) to 3 (+2)
Update HeavyDestroyer unit from DepthCharge 3 to 4
Update ImprovedStratBomber tech from DepthCharge 2 (+1) to 3 (+2)
Update HeavyStratBomber unit from DepthCharge 3 to 4
Update Sub unit attack from 4 to 3 (3/1/2)
Update ImprovedSub tech from +1 attack (5/1/2) to +1 attack/defense (4/2/2)
Update AdvancedSub unit from 6/3/2 to 6/4/2

ubernaut

question about the improved special warfare advancement the manual says "+1 Att.for Alpine (combat paratroop)."

What exactly does that mean? i'm assuming that like the other upgrades given with this advancement that it provides an additional attack bonus for Alpine inf but it seems to also enable Alpine troops to get Air-dropped in the attack phase, does the bonus apply to situations regardless of terrain or does this apply only to hills/mountians?

redrum

@ubernaut Yes, it increases their base attack by 1 (so all terrain). And it allows them to be paradropped into combat.

ubernaut

@redrum got it, thanks again for clarifying

wirkey

@hepps @redrum is it possible that you could give support to "AA hits"? I just had the idea that naval fighters increase the chance for a DC hit.

Hepps

@wirkey I like the idea... but I do not think that is supported currently by the engine.

@wirkey is looking for another unit named after him... the Wirkey Hurricane.

Hepps

@ubernaut said in Total World War: December 1941 3.0.0.3:

@Hepps what about adding a weak DC to BB and CR?

There had been a fair ammount of discussion related to this. My reservations about doing this is based on the desire to have each unit have a special role within the game. Creating this mechanic in the BB & CR will reduce the significance of the DD role. Also I feel as though the BB & CR already have substantial value with their assigned roles.

But as with most things... no idea is ever truly shelved.

redrum

@wirkey @Hepps AA support is included in the latest pre-release and will be in the next stable.

ubernaut

@Hepps thought about that but given the notion that we know the DC is already a bit weak adding a 1 DC to them seems somewhat more realistic a correction than a negative defense penalty. Just my 2¢ i know you all have thought a lot more about this than i have.

Hepps

@ubernaut I get what you are saying... but the 2 things are not really directly comparable...

By using the negative support to Subs... you are always penalized when they are defending fleets with them (Subs) included. Yet not so if you have just a Sub flotilla.

Whereas under your suggestion BB & CR simply become much more effective against Subs... regardless of how they are positioned.

I want Sub hunting to be difficult. The system and power ratings are designed to make Subs less effective as defensive unit. Which I feel is truer to how they were as units during WWII. Making more units capable of hitting them with DC attacks does not achieve a better balance IMO.

ubernaut

@Hepps well sub hunting at 8% success seems about right for capital ships, while subs having 0 value in large defensive fleet clashes doesn't really seem right. i think saying that a 1/12 DC hit per capital ship makes them much more effective is a bit of an exaggeration, destroyers are pretty infective at that same rate currently.

~~if BB and transport attacks a BB + sub the transport fleet has advantage under the current maths, that seems really odd to me.~~

i guess they are sort of tied but that still seems odd to me, that's what i get for editing a reply.

Hepps

@ubernaut Remember... the negative support mechnism is being used as a way to circumvent some of the engine limitations... as soon as you allow Subs to defend when paired with fleets... their defensive rolls become "first strike" shots... giving the defender a huge advantage in the grand scheme of things when you mass Subs with a major fleet.