Dragon War 1.2.4 Black_Elk (Evil) vs redrum (Good)
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I think Evil is floundering a bit. Probably too many rounds spent stuck trying to decide whether to attack into the periphery or stack at the core hehe.
Its enjoyable, though I do struggle a bit with resource management. Its tough trying to find the right combination of resources to produce that second or third hitpoint in a given round, even when trading in some gold for the other stuff. Other than ships I find my purchases on the ground being pretty random. The naval standoff I got myself into with the dwarves here is a definite headache, since I felt like I had to put the Blue dragon in the water to keep the naval option on the table, but still can't quite cover the Crow capital with the fleet alone. The village purchase down south might have been ill advised. Probably should have tried to just get out with the ships a bit sooner, but we're kind of in a corner now.
At one point I had a plan to use the Greenskin dragons for an end around type play, but then realized too late that a river was blocking the flight path, so kinda screwed myseld there on the double dragons for a couple rounds lol.
Anyhow, back to Good
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@Black_Elk Yeah, resources are tough but I think @Frostion intends that for the map. I particularly never seem to have enough wood no matter what I do and how much I try to prioritize capturing them. I do think there are just too many similar land units though that have almost an identical cost and stats which makes purchases feel kind of random. I tend to think a lot about air vs naval vs land purchases but once I decided to buy a land unit then its mostly just 1-move or 2-move the rest are just small resource/stat variations.
Yeah, I think your biggest issue is not fully utilizing your dragons. The blue dragon and water dragon have kind of just countered each other which is ok but the 2 Greenskin dragons haven't done much except help clear a few neutrals. Where as my Red dragon has harassed and wiped out the Undead fleet and now is poised to help me capture the last dragon. I think you probably just need to be more active/creative with the dragons.
I do kind of wish rivers were a bit wider as they are often hard to see/follow.
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In regards to the teleport that you did not see, I think the Lionia notes say: "Volunteer "Crusaders" will rally at the teleporting gate in the "Jade Mountains" as long as Lionia secures this mountain area." There is not really an explanation on where the teleport goes to, but I thought it was obvious
I would actually like to have all air units be able to fly over rivers. At the time when I made Dragon War, I did not know how. I actually still don't know how, but I assume it has something to do with canals? If at some point a +/- move territory effect is made, connections or territories, this could maybe help make airways across rivers.
In regards to who goes after the AI play. I am thinking that maybe I should double the AI unit purchase price and give AI players 2 turns during 1 round, so that they move before good and before evil.
You game is fun to watch. I think I see a lot of 1 unit on 1 unit ship combat. You must be desperate
Also I have noticed some 50% / 50% battles. Are those "surprise attacks", as in both of you did not really see that coming? I have always assumed that TripleA moves had to be at least 75% win chance to risk them. -
@Frostion Yeah, you'd have to use canal attachments similar to how RSOC does for trains to only allow air units to use certain connections.
Double AI turns is an interesting idea as I hadn't thought of that. Either way poor dragon placement is the big problem and that may help a little bit but it would still come down to which AI turn they end up getting placed and where. I still think either hard coded dragon positions or giving units to guard the dragons would make a big difference. I can try to take a look at the AI triggered units placement code and see if I can make them a bit less retarded if you still feel strongly about the AI placing them instead of hard coding or manually randomizing locations. You should probably also increase the young dragon TUV a bit more so the AI is a bit more careful with them (probably should be about equal to the TUV of non-young dragon since that is what the player gains when capturing).
The map is still won/lost on the seas primarily so even a small advantage or using ships to block is critical. Also sometimes trying to pick off 1 or 2 units that are the only units that the opposing player or AI can transport is worth the risk as then you don't need to worry about defending a lot of coast.
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TripleA Turn Summary: Lionia round 10
TripleA Turn Summary for game: Dragon War, version: 1.2.4
Game History
Round: 10 Combat Move - Lionia 1 unit repaired. Trigger Lionian fishing in Sea Zone 66: Lionia has 1 Fish placed in Sea Zone 66 3 Auxiliariess, 1 Crusaders, 1 General and 1 Hvy-Cavalry moved from Morassia Highlands to Morassia 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Wizard moved from Wetshore to Sea Zone 66 1 Auxiliaries, 1 Small-Ship and 1 Wizard moved from Sea Zone 66 to Sea Zone 67 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Wizard moved from Sea Zone 67 to South Goronmok Lionia take South Goronmok from Greenskins 1 Lgt-Infantry and 1 Marines moved from Warg Caves to South Goronmok 1 Lgt-Infantry moved from Rackelton to South Goronmok 1 Large-Ship moved from Sea Zone 72 to Sea Zone 67 1 Hvy-Cavalry and 1 Knights moved from Grand Peaks to Morassia 1 Knights and 1 Lgt-Cavalry moved from Samarkum to Old Slavenport 1 Red-Dragon moved from Grand Peaks to Old Slavenport 1 Crusaders moved from The Witching Mountains to East Witching Mountains Lionia take East Witching Mountains from Undead 3 Crusaderss moved from Hells Crossing to Hells Bayou 1 Auxiliaries, 1 Crusaders and 1 Spearmen moved from Cape Despair to Hells Crossing 1 Crusaders moved from Jade Mountains to Cape Despair 1 Auxiliaries moved from Deadrock to Sea Zone 52 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Small-Ship moved from Sea Zone 52 to Sea Zone 48 Lionia take Sea Zone 47 from Undead Lionia take Sea Zone 48 from Undead 1 Auxiliaries moved from Sea Zone 48 to Bog of Eternal Stench Combat - Lionia Lionia has abandoned Sea Zone 68 to Greenskins Battle in Bog of Eternal Stench Battle in Old Slavenport Lionia attack with 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon Greenskins defend with 2 Auxiliariess and 2 Lgt-Cavalrys Lionia roll dice for 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon in Old Slavenport, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits Greenskins roll dice for 2 Auxiliariess and 2 Lgt-Cavalrys in Old Slavenport, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.00 expected hits Units damaged: 1 Red-Dragon owned by the Lionia 2 Auxiliariess owned by the Greenskins lost in Old Slavenport Lionia roll dice for 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon in Old Slavenport, round 3 : 1/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits Greenskins roll dice for 2 Lgt-Cavalrys in Old Slavenport, round 3 : 0/2 hits, 0.75 expected hits 1 Lgt-Cavalry owned by the Greenskins lost in Old Slavenport Lionia roll dice for 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon in Old Slavenport, round 4 : 0/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits Greenskins roll dice for 1 Lgt-Cavalry in Old Slavenport, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.38 expected hits Lionia roll dice for 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon in Old Slavenport, round 5 : 0/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits Greenskins roll dice for 1 Lgt-Cavalry in Old Slavenport, round 5 : 0/1 hits, 0.38 expected hits Lionia roll dice for 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon in Old Slavenport, round 6 : 1/3 hits, 1.50 expected hits Greenskins roll dice for 1 Lgt-Cavalry in Old Slavenport, round 6 : 0/1 hits, 0.38 expected hits 1 Lgt-Cavalry owned by the Greenskins lost in Old Slavenport Lionia win, taking Sea Zone 68 from Lionia, taking Bog of Eternal Stench from Undead, taking Old Slavenport from Greenskins with 1 Knights, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Red-Dragon remaining. Battle score for attacker is 34 Casualties for Greenskins: 2 Auxiliariess and 2 Lgt-Cavalrys Battle in Morassia Lionia attack with 3 Auxiliariess, 1 Crusaders, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys and 1 Knights Murlocs defend with 6 Murlocs, 1 Murloc-Village, 1 Sawmill and 1 Young-Green-Dragon Lionia roll dice for 3 Auxiliariess, 1 Crusaders, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys and 1 Knights in Morassia, round 2 : 6/8 hits, 4.00 expected hits Murlocs roll dice for 6 Murlocs and 1 Young-Green-Dragon in Morassia, round 2 : 0/7 hits, 1.88 expected hits 6 Murlocs owned by the Murlocs lost in Morassia Some non-combat units are destroyed: Lionia converts Young-Green-Dragon into different units Lionia win, taking Morassia from Murlocs with 3 Auxiliariess, 1 Crusaders, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys and 1 Knights remaining. Battle score for attacker is 42 Casualties for Murlocs: 6 Murlocs Non Combat Move - Lionia 1 Lgt-Cavalry moved from Orangerock Mountains to Samarkum 1 Hvy-Cavalry moved from Lionport to Orangerock Mountains 1 Auxiliaries moved from Lionport to Lionian Outback 1 Air-Balloon moved from Lionport to Sea Zone 65 Purchase Units - Lionia Lionia buy 1 Large-Ship, 1 Small-Ship, 1 Town and 10 Woods; Remaining resources: 9 PUs; 1 Food; 0 Wood; 8 Metal; Place Units - Lionia 1 Large-Ship placed in Sea Zone 67 Units in Rackelton being upgraded or consumed: 1 Village 1 Town placed in Rackelton 1 Small-Ship placed in Sea Zone 59 Turn Complete - Lionia Trigger Auxiliaries in Lionport: Lionia has 1 Auxiliaries placed in Lionport Trigger Crusaders in Jade Mountains: Lionia has 1 Crusaders placed in Jade Mountains Lionia collect 73 PUs; end with 82 PUs Units generate 12 Metal; Lionia end with 20 Metal Units generate 13 Food; Lionia end with 14 Food Units generate -15 PUs; Lionia end with 67 PUs Units generate 6 Wood; Lionia end with 16 WoodCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Lionia : -1.50 Greenskins : -1.88 Murlocs : -1.88 -
TripleA Turn Summary: Dwarves round 10
TripleA Turn Summary for game: Dragon War, version: 1.2.4
Game History
Round: 10 Combat Move - Dwarves Trigger Dwarven fishing in Sea Zone 27: Dwarves has 1 Whales placed in Sea Zone 27 Trigger Dwarven fishing in Sea Zone 20: Dwarves has 1 Fish placed in Sea Zone 20 1 Auxiliaries moved from West Parnesis Desert to Sea Zone 27 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Monoreme moved from Sea Zone 27 to Sea Zone 22 Dwarves take Sea Zone 25 from Crowton Dwarves take Sea Zone 22 from Crowton 1 Auxiliaries moved from Sea Zone 22 to Winterash 1 Halflings moved from Lone Island to Sea Zone 27 1 Halflings, 3 Monoremes and 1 Water-Dragon moved from Sea Zone 27 to Sea Zone 22 1 Halflings moved from Sea Zone 22 to Oldengard 1 Small-Ship moved from Sea Zone 20 to Sea Zone 27 1 Monster moved from Glassville to Iceburn Dwarves take Iceburn from Crowton 1 Marines moved from Glassville to Strongnin Dwarves take Strongnin from Crowton 1 Marines moved from Glassville to Sea Zone 20 1 Marines and 1 Small-Ship moved from Sea Zone 20 to Sea Zone 16 Dwarves take Sea Zone 19 from Crowton Dwarves take Sea Zone 17 from Crowton Dwarves take Sea Zone 16 from Crowton 1 Marines moved from Sea Zone 16 to Barrenbor 1 Halflings moved from Spectoria to Hells Bayou 1 Gnomes moved from Mount Chaos to Hells Bayou 1 Lgt-Cavalry moved from Drake Peninsula to Badlands Dwarves take Wild Mire from Greenskins Dwarves take Badlands from Greenskins 1 Wizard moved from Glassville to Faraway Dwarves take Faraway from Crowton 1 General moved from Glassville to Maningscar Dwarves take Maningscar from Crowton 1 Hvy-Infantry, 1 Lgt-Infantry and 1 Spearmen moved from Faranwall to East Parnesis Desert 1 Auxiliaries moved from Ironhorn to East Parnesis Desert 1 Auxiliaries moved from Mithrildon to Mount Thoril 1 Halflings moved from Faranwall to Mithrildon 1 Hvy-Cavalry moved from Faranwall to Mount Thoril 1 Knights moved from Dol Ulum to Mount Thoril 1 Auxiliaries, 5 Gnomess and 2 Monsters moved from Dol Ulum to Mount Thoril 1 Gnomes and 1 Halflings moved from Gnomen Lowland to Dol Ulum 1 Halflings moved from Halfling Meadows to Ironhorn Combat - Dwarves Battle in Winterash Battle in Barrenbor Battle in Oldengard Non Combat Move - Dwarves Purchase Units - Dwarves Dwarves buy 1 Lgt-Cavalry, 2 Small-Ships and 10 Woods; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; 0 Food; 1 Wood; 2 Metal; Place Units - Dwarves 1 Lgt-Cavalry placed in Glassville 2 Small-Ships placed in Sea Zone 28 Turn Complete - Dwarves Trigger Halflings in Halfling Meadows: Dwarves has 1 Halflings placed in Halfling Meadows Trigger Auxiliaries in Ironhorn: Dwarves has 1 Auxiliaries placed in Ironhorn Trigger Gnomes in Gnomen Lowland: Dwarves has 1 Gnomes placed in Gnomen Lowland Dwarves collect 65 PUs; end with 67 PUs Units generate 17 Food; Dwarves end with 17 Food Units generate 12 Wood; Dwarves end with 23 Wood Units generate -15 PUs; Dwarves end with 52 PUs Units generate 9 Metal; Dwarves end with 11 MetalCombat Hit Differential Summary :
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TripleA Turn Summary: Elves round 10
TripleA Turn Summary for game: Dragon War, version: 1.2.4
Game History
Round: 10 Combat Move - Elves 1 Auxiliaries moved from Blood Island to Sea Zone 11 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Transport-Ship moved from Sea Zone 11 to Sea Zone 22 Elves take Sea Zone 21 from Crowton 1 Auxiliaries moved from Sea Zone 22 to Northern Baldoria Elves take Northern Baldoria from Crowton 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess moved from Durlan South Coast to Sea Zone 9 2 Biremes, 1 Marines, 1 Trireme, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess moved from Sea Zone 9 to Sea Zone 11 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess moved from Sea Zone 11 to Blood Hills 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Crossbowmen moved from Doomed Bridge to Blood Hills 3 Auxiliariess and 2 Hvy-Infantrys moved from Durlan South Coast to Sea Zone 9 3 Auxiliariess, 2 Hvy-Infantrys and 2 Transport-Ships moved from Sea Zone 9 to Sea Zone 22 3 Auxiliariess and 2 Hvy-Infantrys moved from Sea Zone 22 to Dolmarsh Elves take Dolmarsh from Crowton 1 Auxiliaries, 1 General, 1 Lgt-Infantry, 1 Spearmen and 1 Wood-Elves moved from Pontic Desert to Pontic Salt Desert Elves take Pontic Salt Desert from Greenskins 1 Lgt-Infantry moved from Ponticor to Pontic Salt Desert Combat - Elves Battle in Blood Hills Elves attack with 1 Auxiliaries, 1 Crossbowmen, 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess Crowton defend with 1 Auxiliaries, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys, 1 Lgt-Cavalry, 1 Lgt-Infantry, 1 Spearmen and 1 Wizard Elves roll dice for 1 Auxiliaries, 1 Crossbowmen, 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess in Blood Hills, round 2 : 5/9 hits, 5.13 expected hits Crowton roll dice for 1 Auxiliaries, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys, 1 Lgt-Cavalry, 1 Lgt-Infantry, 1 Spearmen and 1 Wizard in Blood Hills, round 2 : 2/8 hits, 4.00 expected hits 1 Auxiliaries owned by the Crowton, 1 Auxiliaries owned by the Elves, 1 Spearmen owned by the Crowton, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys owned by the Crowton, 1 Wizard owned by the Crowton and 1 Crossbowmen owned by the Elves lost in Blood Hills Elves roll dice for 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 5 Wood-Elvess in Blood Hills, round 3 : 3/7 hits, 4.50 expected hits Crowton roll dice for 1 General, 1 Lgt-Cavalry and 1 Lgt-Infantry in Blood Hills, round 3 : 2/3 hits, 1.88 expected hits 2 Wood-Elvess owned by the Elves, 1 General owned by the Crowton, 1 Lgt-Cavalry owned by the Crowton and 1 Lgt-Infantry owned by the Crowton lost in Blood Hills Elves win, taking Blood Hills from Crowton with 1 Marines, 1 Wizard and 3 Wood-Elvess remaining. Battle score for attacker is 60 Casualties for Elves: 1 Auxiliaries, 1 Crossbowmen and 2 Wood-Elvess Casualties for Crowton: 1 Auxiliaries, 1 General, 2 Hvy-Cavalrys, 1 Lgt-Cavalry, 1 Lgt-Infantry, 1 Spearmen and 1 Wizard Non Combat Move - Elves 1 Wood-Elves moved from Oorsik Forest to Oorsik Tirith 1 Auxiliaries and 1 Marines moved from Athondir to Durlan Steppes Purchase Units - Elves Elves buy 1 Hvy-Cavalry, 1 Rangers and 1 Transport-Ship; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 13 Food; 0 Wood; 5 Metal; Place Units - Elves 1 Transport-Ship placed in Sea Zone 11 1 Hvy-Cavalry and 1 Rangers placed in Athondir Turn Complete - Elves Trigger Wood-Elves in Oorsik Forest: Elves has 1 Wood-Elves placed in Oorsik Forest Trigger Auxiliaries in Athondir: Elves has 1 Auxiliaries placed in Athondir Elves collect 50 PUs; end with 50 PUs Units generate 10 Food; Elves end with 23 Food Units generate 9 Metal; Elves end with 14 Metal Units generate 9 Wood; Elves end with 9 Wood Units generate -15 PUs; Elves end with 35 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Elves : -1.63 Crowton : -1.88 -
@Black_Elk Starting to look a bit bleak for Evil. I think you were so focused on your navy that you ended up leaving a lot of land units exposed.
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Wow, yeah, looks like a done deal to me. Guess I didn't have a great intuitive grasp of how much I really needed to hold the territories on defense. Good guys popping up all over the place that last round lol. I think we could probably call it
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I think overall I felt a little more comfortable with the map this time out, though sometimes I goofed like with that portal, or move 2 units getting stuck in mountains, the occasional river getting in the way. Definitely felt the pressure on the water though, and you're right that was probably Evils undoing.
Not sure if its my unfamiliarity with D8 mental math on the fly, or maybe just difficulty managing some of the more complex units like Dragons/Generals and fitting them in with other guys, but I'll admit to still having some trouble getting my bearings. The calc works reasonably well for me when planning straight forward attacks, but less so when planning for a general defense. Maybe my impatience more than anything hehe.
In terms of overall strategic purchasing, I think the trickiest thing for me is the departure from having a basic reliable fodder unit, where I can kind of build/measure everything against the stats of that hitpoint, to a situation where I'm sort of blindly rotating builds based on the available resources. I like how it encourages diversity in the unit buys on a given turn, but its different enough from the typical A&A type situation that it kind of upends my usual way of parsing the situation on the ground. So yeah, couple brain implosions and things can fall apart quickstyle heheh.
Well played man
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@Black_Elk Alright GG. Its definitely quite a unique map in a number of ways. If you don't already, I highly recommend playing it with Map Details Off as its much easier to see what's going on then.
There definitely is less of a true fodder unit and really the Auxillary units that are generated each round is kind of the bar for a fodder unit. Its almost more about using those plus any dragons to get some cheap HP and then have a combination of other units depending on if you want more movement for cavalry or lower transport cost for infantry. I haven't really figured out when/if to use any of the artillery type units as they tend to be too pricey and need too much wood for their value.
I think naval units maybe need to have more defense then attack to avoid games always ending in a naval arms race. Or at least have more ship variety so that there is some feasible counter to your opponent massing as many ships as possible to eventually overwhelm you and then blockade your capital while landing amphibious assaults everywhere.
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For sure, its definitely a cool map. The learning curve is a little steep, since its sufficiently different from other maps I've played that I can't really do like a ready substitution from previous experience, but I dig it. Just loaded that last save with the map details off, and its interesting to see the difference. I think I should have also mulled over the notes a bit more, but it was fun diving in.
Yeah I think you're right about using the spawns as the basic building blocks. Especially since the other cheap ground units often have one resource that is really expensive driving the cap.
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