Terrain Effects for movement

  • Donators Moderators Admin

    @Frostion Very true, Both valid points. I suppose I was caught in a perspective blindness. After reading your post I can see that now. 🙂

  • Moderators

    The thing of creating territories in between to define connection related movement costs can be legitimized by adding an option for a territory to be transitable only, meaning units can move through this territory, but never end their movement in it. That way you would not need to make that territory non-clickable, to achieve the same result, that is a hack and fails for the AI. Then, you could just make maps with small territories, like circles, in between of two proper territories, that would have the function of taking movement, and may have a territory effect image in them, that clarifies the movement cost for each.

    This could also have other implementations. For example, you could make a "Strait of Dover" sea zone with the property of being transitable only and with a Neutral unit in it, that makes AA shots at any units passing by.

  • Moderators

    Another matter is how would retreat be handled?

    If the cost is for entering, the retreat cost, if any, would be dependent on the territories you retreat to (not the one you retreat from, I suppose), albeit it would be also possible to assume that retreat is always free of charge, as the nonsense of expanding your movement capabilities by retreating is nothing new, as this is allowed also by the basic rules.

  • Admin

    @Cernel Most likely retreat would stay free. Otherwise I think you ended up with a very complicated move system that probably doesn't add much depth.

  • Moderators

    @redrum A way to keep it free and keep down complexity, while still making sense, may be to say that movement cost is paid for exiting in all cases, but, only when you enter a hostile territory you cannot blitz, you have, instead, also to pay for entering. That way, you would have already paid for the ability to possibly retreat, using it or not. This would also assure that retreating won't expand your movement abilities over what you could do if everything would be friendly, and create a system by which you substantially have equal or higher non combat than combat movement.

  • Admin

    "the nonsense of expanding your movement capabilities by retreating is nothing new"

    If you look at retreat the following way, it should not be nonsense:
    An army in one territory wants to move into and attack another territory, but other territory is defended by an enemy.
    Attacking army moves into other territory, using 1 fuel as it costs 1 to move 1, but attacker crosses the border (or around the border area) they are halted by the enemy. Attacker realizes that he must retreat and that he cannot finish what he started (alias cant move into and freely around the new territory to take control. Most likely he also wanted to reach the center of the territory)
    The attacker turns back having only used around half the fuel expected, but still ends up using all fuel as he must backtrack to starting position.

    Thinking like this it makes good sense that retreating/turning back does not cost extra fuel. Kind of the same way embarking onto a ship, that is essentially located at territory border, paying full fuel, removes the need to charge fuel again when disembarking / completing the second half of a fuel using attack.

  • Moderators

    @Frostion I thought it was obvious I was talking about the units retreating somewhere else but where they came from, not the ones going back whence they came. So, nothing of what you are saying, aside from attacks coming from 1 territory only.

  • Moderators

    @Frostion I guess I should not have assumed that the matter was clear to everyone, as I was not being very clear in the first place, and not talking about retreat in general, but about some situations that may verify for some units under the current retreat rules for land units. So I will detail what I was talking about more specifically.

    Let's take the "World War II Classic" game.

    1. The simplest example of retreat is if I attack Anglo Sudan Egypt from Libya only, and retreat. In this case, retreating make some, or even enough, sense, as you can assume attacking the British units on the border of Anglo Sudan Egypt and retreating, likely after having gone only a little inside enemy territory, may be about as much movement expensive as destroying all British units and taking over the territory.

    2. A more complex situation is, in the same case as above, if I blitz French Equatorial Africa (obviously a nonsense move on its own right, as you would not go taking Nigeria for free before attacking enemy forces in Egypt; but this is another matter, and blitz is not even a default ability) with the Armour, then attack Anglo Sudan Egypt from Libya and French Equatorial Africa, only. In this case, I'm allowed to retreat either to Libya or to French Equatorial Africa, with all my units. This is a borderline situation as, in either cases, since the multiple territories I'm coming from (and can retreat to) were in reach of Non Combat Movement from all units involved in the attack, while the total movement are expanding my movement capabilities on a strict sense (either the Armour goes from Libya to French Equatorial Africa, from French Equatorial Africa to Anglo Sudan Egypt, and from Anglo Sudan Egypt to Libya, moving into a total of 3 different territories (more than its movement 2 ability), or the Infantry goes from Libya to Anglo Sudan Egypt, and from Anglo Sudan Egypt to French Equatorial Africa, moving into a total of 2 different territories (more than its movement 1 ability)), all the final possibilities, attacking units can reach to, are at least destination they could have moved to without any retreat involved (in this case, either by just moving all units from Libya to French Equatorial Africa, or by just blitzing French Equatorial Africa back to Libya).

    3. The case of retreating absolutely increasing your maximum movement abilities, that is the one I was referring to, can be exemplified by Japanese attacking Americans in China with Infantry units from Manchuria and French Indo China (only), then retreating all to either of those territories. For example, I could attack China with 5 Japanese Infantry units and, if having no losses, retreat all 5 Japanese Infantry units to French Indo China. In this case, I have 3 Japanese Infantry units that started their turn in Manchuria and ended their turn in French Indo China, without any transporting involved, that is a movement that they can not achieve on their own, during Non Combat Movement, not even if Americans would be an Allied player, allowing Non Combat Movement through China.

    So, when I said "the nonsense of expanding your movement capabilities by retreating is nothing new", I was not referring to something like the first case, that I understand it is what you have in mind, but I was referring to something like the third case. And, even in the third case, I was not referring to all 5 retreating infantries, but only to the 3 coming from Manchuria (and retreating to French Indo China).

    I suppose what you are describing could apply if we would have a property to oblige any offensives each coming from 1 territory only (but this would be a nonsensical limit) or a property that makes every units retreat whence they came (instead of all to a same place) (but this would have some issues or challenges, especially in the moment of selecting casualties).

    I hope to have been totally clear now, relatively to what I was referring to. Substantially, the nonsense consists in the fact a hostile territory can allow you to move more than if that same territory would be friendly (allied owned) to you, and what I was pointing out is that this already existent dynamic is liable to become more problematic (bigger) in the moment you have different movement costs per territory, and especially if you pay for entering, rather than for exiting, territories. An example may be that I attack a same movement cost 1 territory from two non-adjacent other territories, one of movement cost 1 and the other one of movement cost 5, then retreat all into the movement cost 5 one, thus obtaining, at the price of 1 movement point, a movement that would cost a total of 6, if the attacked territory would have been a transitable allied or owned one, and I would have just non-combat moved over it, rather than strafing the same. The matter, of course, impacts on fuel too, if movement costs apply there as well (as they likely should).

  • Admin

    @Cernel I really think you are getting into a completely different issue at this point. Having alternative retreat rules would be a good feature request to discuss and I think most people agree the standard A&A ones leave a lot to be desired especially around your case #3.

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