Resource System Assessment and Improvements
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@Frostion Interesting idea and should be possible though from a gameplay perspective once you end up negative its often difficult to reverse that cycle without additional mechanics (like disbanding units, loans, trading, etc). Were you thinking of a specific use for Iron War or another map? Or just a generic idea at this point?
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@redrum
I was just thinking about it as a generic idea. Not related to any of my maps. I would also think that the map’s economy would of course have to be specially designed to function with something like this enabled. -
@Frostion So that I understand what you are trying to say...
Let's say your current Inf. units had a maintenance cost of 1 PU per unit per turn.... then if you had more Inf. than PU you'd be dragged down below 0 PU at the end (presumably) of your turn. So then you'd be restricted from purchasing anything else until you had some surplus PU.
But by comparison... if you also had say... tanks that consumed 1 Fuel per move... you'd still be restricted from moving them once you hit 0 Fuel.
I am understanding your line of thinking correctly?
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@Hepps
Well, I did not really think about fuel in this proposal. I was mostly thinking about economical overspending that could result in a nation going untrustworthy, broke and unable to invest in new construction or production projects, unless they pay all the current debt. Or if the map had a different economy where it would make sense to be able to go into minus.Fuel as a resource should obviously have to function differently than for example PUs or Gold or other expenses that could be loaned from the private sector or forcibly collected from poor farmers in the time of need
Maybe if something was implemented that supported resources to be able to go into minus, obtions should also be available to point out what resources should be affected. Like:
<resourceList> <resource name="PUs" negativeBalancePossible="true"/> <resource name="Fuel"/> </resourceList> -
@redrum @alkexr @Cernel @Frostion If you do go with checking conditions for resources and triggers for payment. I suggest not deprecating the existing "costPU" in user action and political action. Because that itself might break existing maps and maps in development.
@cernel said in Resource System Assessment and Improvements:
I see this just a better alternative than the otherwise biggest item of expanding the ability to use other resources but PUs for user actions (that I would, then, deprecate, as you would be able to do the same and more with conditions and triggers), >
For myself, I can say that my new diplomacy model for my FFA uses "costPU" for most of the political actions. I would have to create 40 sets of conditions and triggers to update it. 10 per nation. For total of 80 additional elements minimum.
Also the Iron War maps might use "costPu" for the user actions that send cash to allies, off top of my head.
Also another reason to leave "costPU" is that it is a simple elegant condition itself, to prevent a user action or political action from even being offered in the first place. By manipulating the cost, to be more than a player should have available. Gives more flexibility and options.
Ideal would be to also expand "costPU" to use multiple resources in addition to resource checks as @alkexr suggested.
@alkexr said in Expand "userActionAttachment":
@general_zod Yeah, out of all your blue sky suggestions (I do like them!) this is the only one that has a chance of being implemented. There is just simply no reason why you should restrict user action cost to PUs; it doesn't even really make the code simpler or anything.
I would suggest a different xml implementation though, which is "cost" value="10:PUs:10:oil:5:iron:1:PoliticalInfluence".
Here is link to that directly related topic.https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/418/expand-useractionattachment]
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Greyhawk Wars also uses user actions similar to Iron War. I know it has "costPU" but maybe it doesn't give cash to ally.
Ok I remember now, was to try swaying other nations to join yours.
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Just adding a resource related feature request link.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/642/iscapturedby-for-resources-elements
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So I am wondering if the "costResource" is gonna be added to the userActionAttachment and politicalActionAttachment anytime soon.
I would love to use this type of feature in Big World 3 : Final Solution. The design of the technology model and diplomacy model in particular hinge on if this will be available. Also the direction of economic structure in general would depend on it's availability, since it would open up a lot of new possibilities to build upon.
<attachment name="userActionAttachment_German_Turn_Two_Technology_Selections_SuperSub" attachTo="Germans" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UserActionAttachment" type="player"> <option name="conditions" value="CA_Germans_Currently_Round_Two:CA_Germans_Round_Two_Techs_Not_True_1of4:CA_Germans_Round_Two_Techs_Not_True_2of4:CA_Germans_Round_Two_Techs_Not_True_3of4:CA_Germans_Round_Two_Techs_Not_True_4of4"/> <option name="activateTrigger" value="triggerAttachment_Activate_Germans_SuperSub_Tech:1:true:false:false:false"/> <option name="text" value="Research_Super_Subs_Technology"/> <option name="chance" value="6:6"/> <option name="attemptsPerTurn" value="1"/> <option name="costPU" value="25"/> <option name="costResource" value="Political.Influence:50"/> <option name="costResource" value="Steel:25"/> </attachment>So the userAction would cost the player 25 PU, 50 Political.Influence, 25 Steel. Cost applied when they click the button for the action and each button would have it's own unique cost.
I propose the same be used for politicalActions as well. This would allow more depth to diplomacy with neutral nations in a ww2 scenario by adding a cost in Political.Influence for major diplomatic overtures. With enough resources put into the diplomatic mission, the neutral nation can align with your alliance. This could mean a simple alliance or conversion of their territories and military, depending on other factors.
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@general_zod Depends. I accept bribes
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@general_zod Did you read what I wrote? Having conditions to test resources would allow all this and more.
Meaning you have a condition to test the player having the resource and a trigger removing such resources (the triggers are already there).
Then you can give the cost info by customising the button or description message, if you want.
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@redrum Also, minor matter, but on the first item, I would still suggest that something like:
"Units generate -36 PUs"
is instead worded as:
"Units consume 36 PUs"
It is strange to read negative generation.
Also, instead of something like this:
"France collect 147 PUs; end with 227 PUs
Units generate -36 PUs; France end with 191 PUs"I would say:
"France collects 147 PUs, for total 227 PUs
Units consume 36 PUs: France retains 191 PUs"Also, while the old summary was ridiculously detailed, I'm not sure if it needs to be so concise as current. I wouldn't mind if it would tell apart what generated/consumed what, saying
"X1 A units generate Y1 PUs,
X2 B units consume Y2 PUs,
X3 C units consume Y3 PUs;
Player1 end with Z PUs."as that would also give you the info how many pikemen, knights, etc. you have, that would be neat.
But current is fine.
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Being able to check resources in conditions is great.
But for userAction and politicalAction, it makes sense to have the cost attached directly to the buttons and that cost displayed to the player (on or next to action buttons). Also this method allows for instantaneous updating of resources, which is needed since there can be multiple userActions in the same phase. The userActions buttons availability in this phase are dependent on if resources are updated instantly (in the same phase), thus affecting the logic used to code it.
This method is not only ideal for userAction and politcalAction, but would definitely reduce the amount of code needed as compared to checking conditions and making triggers to replicate what is already elegantly achieved. (currently with "costPU" method).
This being said, I am still, all for a separate option, with the ability to check resources in separate conditions which can be used anywhere (non userAction/politcalAction areas ideally). And if this method turns out to update resources instantly, I guess doing things the long way will be better than not doing them at all.
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Haha, does first class tickets, to front row seats, in the soon to be, earth shattering project, that is "Big World 3", count as a bribe?
Perhaps I can email you a case of virtual scotch to help grease the wheels, hehe. But if not you will still get my sincerest gratitude for all the hard work and contributions you make on a daily basis. And I'll owe you one if you can get this feature done.
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@general_zod said in Resource System Assessment and Improvements:
Also this method allows for instantaneous updating of resources, which is needed since there can be multiple userActions in the same phase. The userActions buttons availability in this phase are dependent on if resources are updated instantly (in the same phase), thus affecting the logic used to code it.
Conditions of actions are retested anew after an action is made.
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Dont forget the cost of buying tech development chances. It would be great if this could be done with other resources. I am talking about the type of tech development system that currently only accepts PUs. I for instance use it in the Star Trek map, where PUs, because of the limitation, is used instead of my original intended resource "Science".
I hope it is not especially hard to change this along side the other changes
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@frostion If you use the v3 tech system, you can already do it by buying tokens during the normal purchase phase, with whatever resources you want. Then, you would use the tech phase only to roll the tokens you have, not to purchase any. However, this is a bit unrefined, for the way the system is presented (clearly, it was not envisioned that you could use the tech without buying the tokens during the phase), as you would have an useless button and you need to set the token cost for the tech phase at something like 10000 PUs, to mean you cannot purchase tokens with PUs.
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@cernel Practically, this can be fixed on the display by not showing the button to purchase tokens if you cannot, and to disallow token tech purchase, instead of having to set it at 10000 PUs or so. Then, you just need having the regular purchase before the tech phase, but practically all this is already possible, as I said.
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Yeah I do something similar in my "Bad-Ass 4-Nation FFA" tech tokens are purchased during the purchase phase. One could add resources there in addition to PUs cost.
But the level of luck hat a typical technology model uses, ruins the game imo. There should be very little luck, if any at all, when the often typical game changing, overpowered and unbalanced technologies are involved.
Tackling all resource related improvement in one shot, sounds like a big job. I would be very happy with the simple fixes which I proposed above as first intermediate steps.
@general_zod said in Resource System Assessment and Improvements:
This method is not only ideal for userAction and politcalAction, but would definitely reduce the amount of code needed as compared to checking conditions and making triggers to replicate what is already elegantly achieved. (currently with "costPU" method).
This being said, I am still, all for a separate option, with the ability to check resources in separate conditions which can be used anywhere (non userAction/politcalAction areas ideally). And if this method turns out to update resources instantly, I guess doing things the long way will be better than not doing them at all.
