Revised Tournament of Champions (ToC 14) -- St. Nazaire Raiders !!

  • Moderators Admin

    First, I did not enter an official position on this game, or I would have posted it here. In the lobby game when Lousis asked, I said upon a quick 2-minute look, that Axis were in a better position. I haven't played tech in years, so am not one to properly judge the effect of rockets. That said, it's clear the game is very close, and could go either way.

    Second, this does not at all call into question the process of adjudication. Adjudication is part of the rules, and if you agree to play in the ToC, you're agreeing to the rules. Many sports (eg boxing, MMA) go to the judges when neither participant does the job enough to finish within the regulation time. If both sides want to play slowly and pile up infantry, then there's quite a good chance that adjudication will eventually happen.

    What it does call into question is why Barca has for 2 ToC's resigned games against LouisXIVXIV that he has either been winning or very close. And both times after taking the full amount of time, slowing down the tournament for everyone else. If anything needs to be fixed, this does.


  • @bayder To be clear I sent the game file for adjudication per the rules and was told to continue playing with faster time controls. Refusing to do I forfeit.

  • Moderators Admin

    @Barca Thanks for the clarification. This makes even less sense now.

    @Deltium If the game was due for arbitration, why is a player being asked to play faster instead of just adjudicating per the rules? Just trying to make sure the rules are understood and fairly applied to all.

  • Barca sent the game for adjudication a few days before the deadline. I wanted to continue to the deadline. Deltium said (ruled) play through to the deadline and take an extra day if you need to to close the round. Barca said he would not play the 3 days remaining and would rather resign, and did so. That's what happened. There was no "faster play" involved except on my part; just 24 hours clocks.

    Your adjudication point is fine, but I'm just underscoring how things should be construed to avoid adjudication whenever possible because it raises doubt about the result.

    Both Barca's resignations had to do with the fact that when you get close to the deadline there is more pressure to play and play quickly. He prefers to play slowly. The first time there was a combination of things in play -- Barca didn't want to win that conquest "on the cheap" via adjudication. For this game, I think he simply didn't want to play those 3 days. If he had not resigned, the game might well have been kicked back for continued play. Then what?

  • @LouisXIVXIV Going back to the facts. The official deadline was 12/22. I sent the game file for arbitration at the end of the USA turn in 12/21. Within the official time rules I would not have been able to play another full turn in a day.

    1. I woke up early to fins house the round prior to leaving on vacation and did not plan over the weekend. Plus I had no time to argue.

    2. A request by you for an extension was made prior to the deadline that was denied

    3. It should be evident that i prefer the game to be adjudicated than having to forfeit.

    4. We had similar disagreements in the past (ToC13). Your constant pressure to speed up the game outside the bounds of the rules i do not appreciate to put mildly.

    5. I feel like I played within the bounds of all the rules and was denied my right for arbitration.

    1. When we are near the deadline everyone is encouraged to get as much of the game done as possible - to completion, if possible. That's written in the tourney guidelines and Deltium's boilerplate e-mail. Players are not supposed to refuse live play, use the full 24 hours/move the last week(s) of play, and then end 2 days early because they would only have 8 waking hours to make USA's move. That's the opposite of hurrying.

    2. Your choice to exaggerate the direness of the situation by resigning when you do not get your way on trivial rulings does not hold anyone hostage. Deltium made an eminently fair, very simple ruling - play to the deadline with normal clocks, take an extra half-day to wind back to USSR if necessary. That's standard. I believe I had a minor advantage by playing the next round because Axis victory would be that much easier to identify for a judge. Your threat and choice to resign, which applies pressure to my legitimate preference to continue to the deadline was rightly ignored by Deltium. The rules should be fairly made and you can resign whenever you see fit.

    3. Regarding your specific arguments: (2.) I offered you to make your moves on any timeframe by end of Monday [today]. You can make a pretty straightforward move in less than an hour if resignation is the alternative - that's you being intransigent. (3.) I received no extension. It's standard to grant a little time (16 hours here) to wind back to USSR. (4.) That is evident. But I didn't force you to resign - no one did. You chose to resign. How you behave based on your own priorities is your business. (5) The games are supposed to be finished. I am applying pressure, as per the tourney guidelines, so that they are more likely to finish. (6.) You were not denied anything. You had a tantrum because Deltium said play one more round and you quit. Who denied you something?

    4. If I was in your shoes, I easily would have just played some conservative simple half-hour moves and sent it to arbitration. That would be better odds for you. You had points to prove about the righteousness of stopping at round 11 or idk what.

    5. A proper arbitration of this game would see Axis win. I was much more sympathetic to your plight in ToC13 because you were ahead and I didn't want to move forward in a bogus way. Looking forward to "proving" Axis advantage when my part in this TOC is over. @ 24 hour clocks.


  • @LouisXIVXIV Before this gets too personal, since I do respect you as a player.

    1. I believe both our positions are valid.
    2. I would like to see cleaner rules with respect to how to end games that are not decisive. Getting back to Bayder point and the reason I entered the public discussion.

    There are a whole host of options that should be discussed with all interested players to make for a better gaming experience.

    1. Strict time controls in shorter intervals
    2. longer playing time
    3. Different victory conditions


  • LouisXIVXIV (Axis +9) defeats Epinikion. Resignation round 9. The ~ first 6 rounds were played live, then pbem.

    Epi's play style is very aggressive - Barca's is very conservative; a bit of whiplash back to back. A good game, and close. It can be divided between before USA round 6 and after USA round 6.

    Before USA round 6 I thought the game was very tightly matched, and I was worried that Allies might have a small advantage (~51%). I had thought deeply into my play sequence based on two assumptions: 1. USA attacks Southern OR 2. USA stacks Egypt. I was comfortable with the strategies I had come up with for those situations, and I believed I was better off if USA attacked Southern. When USA in fact attacked Southern, I thought - okay, now Axis have the 51%, sounds good. However....

    Then in Round 7 USSR made a grinding attack and retreat against well-fortified Ukraine as part of an attempted KO combo against Germany. That came as a surprise and as a shock. When the dust settled I counted up what remained to see if Germany could hold against a major UK attack presence. It looked like I could, barely. With USSR and USA involved I would need to play a maximum and perfect defense to the last man, and I plotted the way for all J air to get into Europe to die.

    Now, this was a shock - but was it a good move and was it a killing blow? I'm not sure, but Epi and I disagree on this point. He stands by this sequence as a game winning combo. You have to play out the ending in the case Germ does fall - USSR also falls and Japan gets in the game, so it's not so easy to say willy-nilly that Axis are dead on the spot. It depends a great deal on details - exactly when everyone dies and who is left. If UK could take Germ quickly then for sure it's a great killing blow. A mixed effort over 3 rounds with lots of casualties is less clear. The difference between these situations is a handful of German units...

    Epi made a mistake in Africa around then by stacking Egypt with too many USA inf. (why we switched from Live to pbem play) We both believe that this was a mistake. He believes it was game deciding, because those USA inf would have made the difference to German collapse and victory. I'm not so sure.

    The actual result in the real game -- and btw, Axis had just wonderful, almost flawless dice starting at USA round 6 --- was that Germany was going to take far too long to fall, and Russia WAS going to fall eventually. Too much Allied TUV had died in the gambit. We took a 10 day hiatus over new year and when we came back to the game Epi called it.

    A great player and great sport. Always fun. Thanks for a good game Epi.


  • Admin

    thx for the nice report, Louis. I agree completely. Good luck in the rest of the tournament.

  • LouisXIVXIV (Axis +10) defeats Polarole. Resignation round 6. All pbem.

    Perhaps a summary later with more time. GG Polarole and congrats on a strong tourney finish.

    LouisXIVXIV-Polarole ToC 14 Semifinal.tsvg

  • ToC 14 Final - Game #1 has begun! LouisXIVXIV (Axis +8 ) vs Bayder.

    Will there be a game #2? Check back here to find out by March 31st.

  • @LouisXIVXIV said in Revised Tournament of Champions (ToC 14) -- St. Nazaire Raiders !!:

    ToC 14 Final - Game #1 has begun! LouisXIVXIV (Axis +8 ) vs Bayder.

    Will there be a game #2? Check back here to find out by March 31st.

    Looks like Axis is back in fashion!

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