Cold War 1965 - Official Thread
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@Schulz I guess at this point the main question would be whether you got those caracters right in the zip you downloaded, after unzipping it or after resaving the xml (assuming you didn't write them yourself).
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@Cernel The problem is in the actual map repo/zip: https://github.com/triplea-maps/cold_war_1965/blob/master/map/games/ColdWar-1965.xml#L1795
I don't think there are actually any air transports in the map and most likely those aren't needed at all. I'll look to clean that up, actually increment the version, and take a look at hiding some of the players in the next update.
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The problem might be specific to me only since in my native language there are two separate letters as "ı" and "i". The similar problem had occured when I downloaded v3,v4,v5 and revised. They are all downloaded like wwıı not wwii then I had edited them manuelly.
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@Schulz lol nothing new, sometime I have the same problem with the lowercase 'l' and the number '1' in some type settings.
Cheers...
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@redrum said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@Cernel The problem is in the actual map repo/zip: https://github.com/triplea-maps/cold_war_1965/blob/master/map/games/ColdWar-1965.xml#L1795
So, why is "IsAirTransportable" not giving problem to me? Is it because Windows is case insensitive, while this map would error if I were on Linux, for example?
I don't think there are actually any air transports in the map and most likely those aren't needed at all. I'll look to clean that up, actually increment the version, and take a look at hiding some of the players in the next update.
Uhm no. There are actual cargo planes ("CargoPlane"), that are doing only that (beside being fodder). In the other thread me and @Lafayette discussed that, and agreed that they are even a tad too good for their cost.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1532/cold-war-map/13The Tank is way overpriced or underpowered, with respect with Artillery, and also considering that the CargoPlane may bee too good at cost 9, movement 5, and able to transport 2 Infantries or 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery, especially in combination with the Helicopter. I would make the Tank able to give support (a Tank is an artillery piece too) and increase its attack and defence to 4 (so you get a +1 attack and +2 defence for +2 PUs over the Artillery).
I see that, in the code there is the following nonsense:
- The "Infantry" has two occurences of "isAirTransportable", first false, second true.
- The "Marine" has two occurences of "isAirTransportable", both true.
- The "Helicopter" has "isAirTransport", but lacks "transportCapacity", making the option pointless.
Since helicopters were indeed used to transport troops, I guess the mapmaker may have intended the "Helicopter" unit to be able to transport 1 Infantry etc.. In this case, this line should be added to its attachment:
<option name="transportCapacity" value="2"/>However, Helicopters are already a very good unit without the ability to transport anything, so I think this ability would imbalance the unit roster a bit more, for example making the "Tank" even more underpowered/overpriced (but I think I would never buy such unit already) and making "Fighter" and "FighterBomber" even less interesting (they are already quite marginalized by how good the "NuclearBomber" is).
Beside that, the unit attachments have the deprecated "isInfantry" property, even present twice per attachment.
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@Cernel, I don't think the OS matters since TripleA is written in JAVA, and 'IsAirTransportable', 'ısAirTransportable', and 'isAirTransportable', would all be treated as different values.
Windows is case insensitive. 'infantry.png' and 'Infantry.png' can not be placed in the same unit folder. But one can be placed in the nation's unit folder and the other placed in the 'units' folder, and, if my understanding is correct, TripleA will use the correct image as long as both are defined properly.
Cheers...
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the air transport has too many restrictions to be useful
can only transport to combat
cannot jump over enemy terroties -
@Lord-Bevan An exception to the 'jump' is undefended territories as they are captured immediately. This forces players to leave a token garrison, with multi-country attacks, strafing can be useful to clear a path. There is an element of strategy.
Being able to jump territories could be imbalanced. If there are two forces in stalement, massing air transport would force a potential retreat to avoid being jumped over.
Air transports also serve as one hitpoint too, I remember that right? that is another aspect where mass air transports is pretty powerful, you get a lot of fodder, back up with a few nuclear bombers and helo's, and it's a powerful attack.
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@LaFayette You mean taking an undefended territory with a land unit and having the paratrooping aircraft moving past it? If so, that is a bug, actually (illegal move).
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@Cernel Rules depend on the map, strict tournament like players will consider any allowable moves, unless obvious bugs, to be the rules regardless of what they should be external to the map.
Such an undefended territory can be captured by paratroop, and then another air-cargo can move past it. For a path 3 territories deep, you'd need at least 6 units, 3 inf and 3 cargo.
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
You mean taking an undefended territory with a land unit and having the paratrooping aircraft moving past it?
I don't think I implied that, AFAIK that one air transport cannot move until non-combat.
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@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Such an undefended territory can be captured by paratroop, and then another air-cargo can move past it. For a path 3 territories deep, you'd need at least 6 units, 3 inf and 3 cargo.
I assure you that this is a bug. I would not allow you to perform such a move, if you were playing against me, unless the notes of the game state it is allowed.
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@Cernel If you play this map, I'd advise you make it clear, before starting, to any players that move is not allowed. Such a tactic is a 'flavor' of this map and is important strategically.
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The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
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@LaFayette My opinion that is just a common bad abit of TripleA players, that they just go with what the engine does. That is merely a very old bug of v3 paratroopers, that so far no developer ever fixed.
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I see, I don't know if I would call it a bad habit. It is a mode of play where players basically agree:
- we are not going to argue the 'official' rules, we both know what the game engine does and does not do, what it allows is allowed, those are the rules.
- very narrow, specific and obvious bugs are allowed for edit, typically carrier unload/load and transport unload.
- strictly no edits are otherwise allowed.
I would call this "strict" play. I'm not always a fan of this, but for some players it's how they play. It's important to establish these rules before starting play.
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@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
In the A&A boardgames paratroopers don't take control of a territory just because they "land" there.
In v3 the Infantry unit is "dropped" in the first hostile territory during Combat Move Phase. They can attack there on their own or supported by other units.
In Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.2 paratroopers during Combat Move Phase can only land in an enemy-conrolled territory that at the same time is attacked by other land units coming from adjacent territories or is amphibiously assaulted.Control over a territoy changes during the Conduct Combat Phase, after combat has been resolved (maybe against zero defenders).
This is even true for a simple infantry walk-in into an empty enemy territory. Moving there occurs during Combat Move Phase while taking control occurs during Conduct Combat Phase.
There is one exception that is a tank's blitzing move: By blitzing, the tank establishes control of the first territory before it moves to the next.
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@LaFayette said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The paratroops immediately capturing territories is not unique to this map though. That behavior I would not call a bug as the behavior is fully intended. A bug is something unintended.
@Panther could you weigh in if you agree that paratroop captures of undefended territory should happen immediately during combat-move or during combat?
In the A&A boardgames paratroopers don't take control of a territory just because they "land" there.
In v3 the Infantry unit is "dropped" in the first hostile territory during Combat Move Phase. They can attack there on their own or supported by other units.
In Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.2 paratroopers during Combat Move Phase can only land in an enemy-conrolled territory that at the same time is attacked by other land units coming from adjacent territories or is amphibiously assaulted.Control over a territoy changes during the Conduct Combat Phase, after combat has been resolved (maybe against zero defenders).
This is even true for a simple infantry walk-in into an empty enemy territory. Moving there occurs during Combat Move Phase while taking control occurs during Conduct Combat Phase.
There is one exception that is a tank's blitzing move: By blitzing, the tank establishes control of the first territory before it moves to the next.
Yeah, but I recall also the case of the bomber moving through a hostile territory blitzed by an armour has been ruled out in the FAQ.
The wrong implementation of defenceless territory capture/liberation in TripleA is a source of bugs (like this one) and also a problem in the moment you want to switch the combat movement and purchase phase, as it causes the fact that you can spend the captured income on the same turn, if a capital is captured when defenceless. This is documented as a special rule in NWO and WAW, but it is really based on a TripleA problem turned into pseudo-normal practice.
I wonder if this behaviour is consistent in all Axis & Allies game since Classic 1st edition? In particular, how about the fact that the Classic 3rd edition program (1998) actually switched ownership of blitzed hostile territories during conduct combat, not combat movement? I know in practice nothing changes, but was that a program inconsistency, or in 3rd edition you actually changed control of blitzed territories during conduct combat, instead of combat movement?
You can see it here, at 5:05, in the typical round 1 blitzing of French Equatorial Africa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKaz_lXxPtw -
@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
Yeah, but I recall also the case of the bomber moving through a hostile territory blitzed by an armour has been ruled out in the FAQ.
Indeed, it has been clarified that the bomber carrying paratroopers has to stop in that first hostile territory (v3).
Update:
@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:The wrong implementation of defenceless territory capture/liberation in TripleA is a source of bugs (like this one) and also a problem in the moment you want to switch the combat movement and purchase phase, as it causes the fact that you can spend the captured income on the same turn, if a capital is captured when defenceless. This is documented as a special rule in NWO and WAW, but it is really based on a TripleA problem turned into pseudo-normal practice.
I wonder if this behaviour is consistent in all Axis & Allies game since Classic 1st edition? In particular, how about the fact that the Classic 3rd edition program (1998) actually switched ownership of blitzed hostile territories during conduct combat, not combat movement? I know in practice nothing changes, but was that a program inconsistency, or in 3rd edition you actually changed control of blitzed territories during conduct combat, instead of combat movement?
This is consistent since v2.
In Classic (v1) 2nd ed. moving land units into empty enemy territories during Combat Move Phase leads to taking control immediately.
I have no idea regarding the 1998 software (3rd ed.). -
If I understand right:
v1 + v2: control of an undefended territory is immediate (on combat move)
v3+: control is only changed during combat phaseBlitz is an exception in all versions, where control is switched immediately. Please correct me if I'm wrong: if a tank blitzes into two territories, both undefended, a paradrop could potentially land in a 3rd territory behind the blitzed territories?
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