Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?
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@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
Then, you are wrong. If there are no destroyers at all in the battle, both under v2 and v3+ rules (v1 doesn't matter here, as only offensive submarines can), all submarines offensively and defensively "sneak attack" on each other. This too implies that the defender can fire back, but the reason is because the defender is "sneak attacking" too, not because "neither gets a sneak attack". Under v2 rules, the fact that all submarines offensively and defensively "sneak attack" is actually true also in any case of destroyer presence, as the destroyer has the function of delaying "sneak attack" casualties removal.
To be clear, I understand that you are substantially understanding the matter correctly, but you are explaining it wrongly, especially in the moment you say "neither gets a sneak attack on each other", because you don't get a sneak attack on something specifically. I believe you should have said something like "neither is able to cause any removal of sneak attack able units before they can fire too", instead.
Yes, it is most likely I'm using the wrong terminology. I don't know the terminology that is commonly used in the triplea community. I'm picking it up based on the code which I've learned doesn't use the correct terminology either.
For me, "sneak attack" means that the unit can't fire back. It doesn't mean what order it occurs. I would actually say that AA units and NavalBombardment also have "sneak attack" when their targets can't fire back.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
For me, "sneak attack" means that the unit can't fire back. It doesn't mean what order it occurs. I would actually say that AA units and NavalBombardment also have "sneak attack" when their targets can't fire back.
@Trevan Calling it "sneak attack" (which is indeed in accordance with the rather spurious TripleA terminology) has also the issue that people might understand you are referring only to "attacking" submarines, not both attacking and defending ones. I guess this terminology is a relic from the times when TripleA was a highly hardcoded program to play only Classic (in which submarines are "sneaky" only on the offensive). Maybe it's better we rather stick with "first strike" instead, that has at least the benefit of being neutrally worded with respect to attack and defence.
It's not a problem for me. I'm just saying others might think you are referring to "attacking" submarines only, though.
Side note, I dislike the attack/defence dichotomy, and would like it being changed to a correct offence/defence one, instead. Of course, this is off topic.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
... And since these units don't get to fire back, my question is: "Should they also still affect the firstStrike phase?"
So if the AA shot kills the DD the DD can't shoot back but it still prevents the sub's "First Strike" ? If so, imo it shouldn't be able to. If the AA unit kills the isDestroyer unit then the isDestoyer should have no impact.
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So, back to the original question.
I'd like to make this change in the logic since it is easier for me to code. I also think it makes sense. But the battle UI dialog (the one that you see during the actual battle) will be problematic. It currently figures out the list of steps at the beginning of the round. With this change, the list of steps can change (an example would be the "first strike casualty selection" step would originally not be there but if the destroyer dies, it will need to be there).
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is present:
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is not present:
So, imagine there is an AA phase in that first screen. The AA fires and hits the destroyer. At that point, the list of phases needs to be updated to look like the second screen.
Is it ok to either show all the possible steps? Or should the list of phases change after the AA phase is over?
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
So, back to the original question.
I'd like to make this change in the logic since it is easier for me to code. I also think it makes sense. But the battle UI dialog (the one that you see during the actual battle) will be problematic. It currently figures out the list of steps at the beginning of the round. With this change, the list of steps can change (an example would be the "first strike casualty selection" step would originally not be there but if the destroyer dies, it will need to be there).
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is present:
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is not present:
So, imagine there is an AA phase in that first screen. The AA fires and hits the destroyer. At that point, the list of phases needs to be updated to look like the second screen.
Is it ok to either show all the possible steps? Or should the list of phases change after the AA phase is over?
If you mean that this is a situation in which only the Germans have submarines while only the British may have destroyers, what is being depicted here is nothing correct, in the first place. It looks to me like a wrong mixing up of v2 and v3~5 rules. It is clearly v3~5 rules in the moment I see the submarines can "withdraw" (I assume that means submerge...) before anything else listed. However, then I see that, in what I understand is the case with British destroyers present (the first one), the Germans "first strike units" still fire during what I assume is substantially the opening fire step, while the casualties are removed in the normal step for it (instead of immediately after the opening fire), which is according to v2 rules, but contrary to v3~5 rules. If this would be actually v3~5 rules, that "Germans first strike units fire" step should not be there, either (or, more exactly, should be there with no submarines firing during it), the submarines firing in the normal attack step, instead (except still rolling separately from the rest of units if not sharing the same possible targets).
As always, I defer to @Panther to correct me if I'm saying anything wrong.
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@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
If you mean that this is a situation in which only the Germans have submarines while only the British may have destroyers, what is being depicted here is nothing correct, in the first place. It looks to me like a wrong mixing up of v2 and v3~5 rules. It is clearly v3~5 rules in the moment I see the submarines can "withdraw" (I assume that means submerge...) before anything else listed. However, then I see that, in what I understand is the case with British destroyers present (the first one), the Germans "first strike units" still fire during what I assume is substantially the opening fire step, while the casualties are removed in the normal step for it (instead of immediately after the opening fire), which is according to v2 rules, but contrary to v3~5 rules. If this would be actually v3~5 rules, that "Germans first strike units fire" step should not be there, either (or, more exactly, should be there with no submarines firing during it), the submarines firing in the normal attack step, instead (except still rolling separately from the rest of units if not sharing the same possible targets).
As always, I defer to @Panther to correct me if I'm saying anything wrong.
I don't understand what you said. That is an actual screen shot from TripleA 2.1 using WW2 Global 2nd. There are no custom modifications to it. The top screen shot is from two German subs attacking the British fleet (battleship, cruise, and destroyer) off the eastern coast of Scotland. The bottom screen shot is from two German subs attacking the British/French fleet (battleship and two cruisers) in the English Channel.
Also, I'm not sure how that helps in answering my question. Should the screen be updated dynamically after the AA phase (which isn't shown in the images, so you'll just have to imagine it) to look like the bottom image, or should the phases in the bottom image be always visible since they may or may not occur depending on the results of the AA phase.
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@Trevan
The screen should reflect the battle that occurs after AA fire has been resolved.
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence. -
@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
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I agree with Panther, but if it's labor intensive to do, I think it would be fine either way. It would basically just skip over the unused step.
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@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
I don't believe the situation I'm dealing with exists in any of those rule sets. Can any AA unit in v2 LHTR target a destroyer? Or anything other than air? Since this code change will really affect only custom games, does it have to follow v2 LHTR, or v1, v3, etc?
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@Trevan Are we not always working with analogies to the rules (if not definitely unwanted by the map maker)? IMHO we do.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Cernel said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
@Panther said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
The rules clearly state that AA fire is executed before the first round of combat (of the General Combat seqence).
Submarines fire either during step 2 (no enemy destroyer present) and/or step 4-5 (enemy destroyer present) of the General Combat sequence.Let's please all not forget that TripleA is a program based primarily on v1 (Classic) rules, that I believe should always apply as default, while a set of properties should exist to implement other rules sets.
Meaning that if someone is making working something by v3~5 rules generally ( @Trevan when I say v3~5 rules, I comprise the first and second editions of Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 too), that is wrong if such rules are not the same for each of v1, v2 and v2 LHTR, if relevant.
For example, in v2 LHTR both the AA fire and the Submarines fire happen during the (same) "Conduct Opening Fire" step, thus I assume should have to be regarded as simultaneous. The casualties selected during such step are also removed all together, during the "Remove Opening Fire Casualties" step, unless a destroyer is present on the opposite side.
So, here, the first thing we should do is asking how this should work for v2 basic (Revised OOB), which is the first game with the kind of destroyers we are looking for (Classic 3rd edition, which is supported by TripleA too, has destroyer units too), then expanding it to all other rules sets. Shouldn't we?
I don't believe the situation I'm dealing with exists in any of those rule sets. Can any AA unit in v2 LHTR target a destroyer? Or anything other than air? Since this code change will really affect only custom games, does it have to follow v2 LHTR, or v1, v3, etc?
This is true for all rulesets and all basic games all the same. As far as custom games go, you can have a Revised custom game in which a unit is able to AA fire on a destroyer just as much as a Global 1940 one doing the same.
Obviously, to me, it should follow whatever rules set that custom game is based upon.
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
Here's what the UI shows when a destroyer is present:
@Panther Do you agree that this is incorrect for Global 1940, in the case of Germans submarines attacking British destroyers? The Germans submarines should not fire during any "first strike units fire" step, but just during the regular attack step. Am I correct to point out that this image is displaying the v2 behaviour, not the v3~5 (Global 1940) one, for the case?
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@Cernel Yes, and I remember that the combat sequence logic has been subject to some Github issues in the past.
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https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/1645
for example.
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I can tell you that if you somehow create a map with v2 LHTR ruleset (not sure how this is done) with an AA unit that can hit submarine, then the AA fire will happen before the submarine fires and if the AA hits the submarine, the submarine will not be able to fire. So the engine doesn't allow you to create a v2 LHTR game where both AA and subs fire at the same time.
But ignoring that issue, if the rule set allows the AA to fire before the subs and the rule set allows destroyers to block the subs "first strike/sneak attack/silent kill/whatever it is called" and the AA hits and removes the destroyer from battle, should the remaining steps act like the destroyer is still present or should they be changed to act like the destroyer is not present?
It sounds like both @Panther and @beelee agree that the steps after the AA phase should act as if the destroyer is no longer present.
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@Trevan Then, in my opinion, you should reformulate your question as to clarify that you are asking for an answer only for the v3~5 case (postponing the issue of TripleA generally applying such rules sets to v1~2 too, for all relevant elements, if this is currently the case).
Still, this would have in the way the inconsistencies that I've pointed out (mostly that the behaviour is to keep first strike casualties in battle, that is how destroyers work in v2, but not in v3 and following rules sets).
So far, it seems to me that the TripleA program is incorrectly applying v2 destroyers rules to v3~5 too and incorrectly applying v3~5 AA fire rules to v2 too. If this is the case, you are at risk of ending up creating a spurious solution for a rules set that is substantially a mash-up of different ones (the risk would be averted only if the conclusion would just happen to be the same in all cases).
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@Trevan said in Should the sneak attack of FirstStrike unit battle steps change during the round?:
It sounds like both @Panther and @beelee agree that the steps after the AA phase should act as if the destroyer is no longer present.
That is my opinion for v3+ games.
In v2 AA fire is totally messed up however, so I am not sure whether other issues should maybe be addressed before. -
@Panther I think what should be done here is answering for 3 cases:
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What should happen under v2 LHTR rules (then see if v2 OOB is different).
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What should happen under v3~5 rules.
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What should happen if we would have a rules set in which the AA fire is by v3~5 rules but the destroyer anti-submarines ability is by v2 rules (which is what seems to be the current TripleA behaviour, maybe). I don't actually know if this point is even possible to be answered, and would rather suggest the basis being fixed as to work properly, before answering the question at this topic (so that we don't have to answer point 3, maybe (unless the program would still allow mapmakers to do such a mix, of course)).
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