Idea: Change LL - Neutralized Subs Roll With Main Combat Roll
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@LaFayette said in Idea: Change LL - Neutralized Subs Roll With Main Combat Roll:
@ff03k64 said in Idea: Change LL - Neutralized Subs Roll With Main Combat Roll:
If i know that the destroyer or expensive boat hit in this situation
... (defenders always roll last).
Oh, that would make a difference. My brain can't think my next though through right now. What if it was defenders with subs and the attacker is trying to decide on which casualties to take between destroyers and expensive ships?
I just can't even think of how that battle would go right now.
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@LaFayette if this change can be limited to LL only or as a universal map option (like 'combine first strike rolls in LL' or something) i would probably not object but reading this thread really makes me think this would be putting LL in front of Dice in terms of our priorities which i strongly object to.
LL is a thing that we invented to make battle outcomes more predictable. we should remember despite the value of this enhanced predictability to certain players it is dampening a key aspect of the game, war is messy, not predictable, and specifically to this point sub warfare should be more unpredictable than regular battle whether or not you are trying to make things more predictable than normal anyway, IMO.
Additionally, if this change were made universally it would definitely seem to break maps like TWW where the sub destroyer dynamic is totally different.
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Let's be careful this does not become a LL vs dice thing. For better or worse, most games are LL (90% of games are played on the lobby, and most of those are LL). So, LL is very significant.
Putting that to the side, the described change should not have any effective difference to dice games as well. Otherwise, any examples of how it would are being requested so we can look at them. I'd much rather this thread get away from "IDK, this feels like a big change" to more concrete examples that we should look at and decide if they can be addressed.
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I'm going to take a stab at the issue of subs firing separately when they don't need to.
The current algorithm has a "first strike", "first strike regular", and a "general" phase. The "first strike" phase is used when there is no destroyer. The "first strike regular" is used when there is a destroyer. The code needs to be updated so that "first strike regular" and "general" are merged. To do that, "general" needs to know if the subs are firing in the "first strike" phase or not.
My idea is to set up the "firing squardrons" at the beginning of the battle turn and assign the unittypes to the different groups depending on the presence of destroyers. Then the firing groups would just fire normally.
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@LaFayette well i did mention TWW but the point is not all maps use the same mechanics for sub warfare how would these changes effect such maps?
Also, i'm not saying this is a dice versus LL thing but the rules of the game and our engine is based on the principle of dice. Any change to the way those outcomes should be expected versus the established rules presents an issue in my mind at least.
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The intent is the outcome would not change at all for dice and would only change in LL to further reduce luck.
Could you @ubernaut present a specific example from TWW?
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@LaFayette destryoers do not negate subs powers in TWW
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@ubernaut said in Idea: Change LL - Neutralized Subs Roll With Main Combat Roll:
@LaFayette destryoers do not negate subs powers in TWW
I haven't followed too closely here, but G 40 House Rules mod uses Destroyers that are not "isDestroyer" as well.
Idk if that affects the proposed change, but it's a key part of how the mod works.
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Cool, in both cases subs would continue to roll on their own if the destroyers do not have the 'isDestroyer' property. A premise of this suggestion is that the subs have a neutralized first strike, if destroyers are not neutralizing the first strike, then there would be a first strike roll.
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@LaFayette as long as we are sure this will not affect dice outcomes i withdraw my objection.
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