How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?

Unternehmer

How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?

Dear TripleA community, please share your thoughts to the following topic:

There is a territory with 5 PU value;
There is a factory on this territory that can produce and place 10 infantrymen per turn;
Only 1 factory can be on any territory;
The factory requires minimum territory value of 4 PU to be placed on this territory;
Unlimited number of infantrymen can be on any territory;
Infantryman can be build only in the factory;
Each infantryman can produce and place only 1 trench;
Infantrymen can produce and place trenches everywhere without factory and without territory value limitation;
Total number of trenches to be placed per turn on this territory is only limited to the number of infantrymen on this territory this turn;
Factory cannot take part in the battle and should be captured/destroyed if the battle is lost;
Infantryman and trench can take part in the battle and can be taken as casualties;

For example:
There are 2 regions – Paris (territory with 5 PU value) and Grand Est (territory with 3 PU value).

Paris has 1 factory (and is not allowed to have more factories) and Grand Est has no factory (and is not allowed to have any factories as its territory value is below 4 PU).

Factory in Paris produces up to 10 French infantrymen per turn and all French infantrymen go every turn from Paris to Grand Est to stay there and defend against Germans.

And every turn French infantrymen can produce and place trenches in Grans Est region (1 infantryman can produce and place 1 trench per turn, 10 infantrymen can produce and place 10 trenches per turn, 100 infantrymen can produce and place 100 trenches per turn, 10.000 infantrymen can produce and place 10.000 trenches per turn, etc.)

I do not speak about "createsUnitsList" because it's not only trenches that the infantrymen can produce and place per turn. Sometimes trenches (medieval wooden walls), sometimes long-term fortifications (medieval stone walls / modern bunkers), sometimes mines (anti-tank mines / anti-infantry mines, etc.) and sometimes nothing (because the player decides to build normal units than spend PUs on fortifications).

Dear TripleA community, please share your thoughts about:

what options should a factory, an infantryman and a trench have / not have in this situation?
what properties should this map have / not have in this situation?
maybe you know some maps that have such mechanics?

I have seen maps that produce and place trenches only in territories with factories like normal units, but it is not my situation.
I want legionaries to produce war camp’s wooden walls in the region where legionaries currently are and without factory in Rome.
But I want legionaries to be produced only in factory (in civilised industrial region with Roman factory and not somewhere in ancient German forest or in Egyptian desert) and limited to the factory production capacity per turn and not to the region territory PU value.

And also I do not want to limit Roman field fortifications to the number of legionaries or to the territory PU value. Because it is strange that in some maps 1 legionary can produce and place 1 field fortification per turn and 100 legionaries can also produce and place only 1 field fortification per turn! Why? More workers per turn should provide more output per turn or am I wrong?

beelee

Hi @unternehmer
Not 100% certain what you're asking but search "Unlimited Constructions" in "Pact of Steel 2" xml.

Unternehmer

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

Hi @unternehmer
Not 100% certain what you're asking but search "Unlimited Constructions" in "Pact of Steel 2" xml.

Hallo @beelee,

"Unlimited Contructions" allows to place unlimited number of trenches per turn but no more than the number of infantrymen in this territory this turn? So that 1 infantryman can only place max. 1 trench per turn?

"Unlimited Contructions" also allows to place unlimited number of factories? But I want only maximum 1 factory on any territory.

TheDog

@unternehmer
I think this may help, look at the xml
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/2936/britannia-roman-invasion-v2-official-thread

Forts & Palisades do have a move of 1, but search for
GO TERRITORY EFFECTS

These stop the Forts & Palisades from moving and the Hard AI treats Forts & Palisades as none moving units.

Its not 100% what your after.

Unternehmer

@thedog said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@unternehmer
I think this may help, look at the xml
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/2936/britannia-roman-invasion-v2-official-thread

Forts & Palisades do have a move of 1, but search for
GO TERRITORY EFFECTS

These stop the Forts & Palisades from moving and the Hard AI treats Forts & Palisades as none moving units.

Dear @TheDog,

I don't understand why do you mention "moving / not moving" fortification units in this thread.

Is <option name="movement" value="0"/> not enough for fortification units to stop their movement?

TheDog

@unternehmer
Yes, the AI is tricked into buying and placing these non-moving units/fortifications. A human player can also use them.

You can put your further restrictions on these units.

Unternehmer

@thedog said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@unternehmer
Yes, the AI is tricked into buying and placing these non-moving units/fortifications. A human player can also use them.

You can put your further restrictions on these units.

Dear @TheDog,

I have tested your map "Britannia: Roman Invasion v2"

I have deleted <option name="maxBuiltPerPlayer" value="9"/> for palisade and <option name="maxBuiltPerPlayer" value="6"/> for fort,
but still I can only place fortifications (palesades and forts) only up to the territory value.

So if I have 100 generals in the territory (this unit has 2 options:
<option name="canProduceUnits" value="true"/>
<option name="canProduceXUnits" value="3"/>)
I can still only place fortifications up to the territory value.

So your map doesn't suit this thread.

beelee

@unternehmer said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

"Unlimited Contructions" allows to place unlimited number of trenches per turn but no more than the number of infantrymen in this territory this turn? So that 1 infantryman can only place max. 1 trench per turn?

You will have to Player Enforce this. triplea can't do it for you.
Same with the Factories. Although, triplea may be able to enforce that

Unternehmer

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@unternehmer said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

"Unlimited Contructions" allows to place unlimited number of trenches per turn but no more than the number of infantrymen in this territory this turn? So that 1 infantryman can only place max. 1 trench per turn?

You will have to Player Enforce this. triplea can't do it for you.
Same with the Factories. Although, triplea may be able to enforce that

Dear @beelee,

the trench can have the option:
<option name="requiresUnits" value="infantryman"/>
the infantryman can have the options:
<option name="canProduceUnits" value="true"/>
<option name="canProduceXUnits" value="1"/>

But if I have more then 1 infantryman in the territory (2, 3, 4, 5, etc. infantrymen), the game still allows me to place only 1 trench.

Do you know any maps where the player can have multiple factories of the one type (not like 1 factory_minor + 1 barrack + 1 factory_major + 1 factory high-tech etc.) in the territory and they all increase total output?

Like 5 factories in the territory * <option name="canProduceXUnits" value="1"/> => 5 units maximum output per turn in this territory?

beelee

@unternehmer still not sure what you're asking but I have Infantry can place, not produce, so you gotta buy them, 1 Fortification per Infantry. The only way I could get it to work was by activating the Game Properties "More Constructions with Factory" "More Constructions without Factory" and "Unlimited Constructions" and then Player Enforcing the 1:1 Infantry to Fortification.

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Fortification" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
<option name="attack" value="0"/>
<option name="defense" value="0"/>
<option name="isConstruction" value="true"/>
<option name="constructionType" value="Fortification"/>
<option name="constructionsPerTerrPerTypePerTurn" value="99"/>
<option name="maxConstructionsPerTypePerTerr" value="99"/>
<option name="requiresUnits" value="infantry"/>
<option name="unitPlacementOnlyAllowedIn" value="Hainan:Paulau Island:Marianas:Caroline Islands:Marshall Islands:Guam:Wake Island:Midway:Johnston Island:Line Islands:Aleutian Islands:New Britain:Solomon Islands:New Guinea:Ceylon:Dutch New Guinea:New Hebrides:Fiji:Gilbert Islands:Samoa:Philippines:Java:Borneo:Sumatra:Celebes:Hawaiian Islands:Okinawa:Formosa:Iwo Jima:French Madagascar"/>
</attachment>

So triplea will allow 1 Infantry to place as many Fortifications as you have, thus the Player Enforce.

Edit
Also triplea will allow you to take the Fortification as a casualty which is not wanted, so PE there as well

Unternehmer

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@unternehmer still not sure what you're asking but I have Infantry can place, not produce, so you gotta buy them, 1 Fortification per Infantry. The only way I could get it to work was by activating the Game Properties "More Constructions with Factory" "More Constructions without Factory" and "Unlimited Constructions" and then Player Enforcing the 1:1 Infantry to Fortification.


<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Fortification" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
<option name="attack" value="0"/>
<option name="defense" value="0"/>
<option name="isConstruction" value="true"/>
<option name="constructionType" value="Fortification"/>
<option name="constructionsPerTerrPerTypePerTurn" value="99"/>
<option name="maxConstructionsPerTypePerTerr" value="99"/>
<option name="requiresUnits" value="infantry"/>
<option name="unitPlacementOnlyAllowedIn" value="Hainan:Paulau Island:Marianas:Caroline Islands:Marshall Islands:Guam:Wake Island:Midway:Johnston Island:Line Islands:Aleutian Islands:New Britain:Solomon Islands:New Guinea:Ceylon:Dutch New Guinea:New Hebrides:Fiji:Gilbert Islands:Samoa:Philippines:Java:Borneo:Sumatra:Celebes:Hawaiian Islands:Okinawa:Formosa:Iwo Jima:French Madagascar"/>
</attachment>

So triplea will allow 1 Infantry to place as many Fortifications as you have, thus the Player Enforce.

Edit
Also triplea will allow you to take the Fortification as a casualty which is not wanted, so PE there as well

Dear @beelee,
thank you very much for this explanation!

You don't have any <option name='tuv' value='?'/> for this unit "Fortification".
How do you motivate the AI to buy this unit? Or am I wrong and in your game the AI buys fortifications in sufficient numbers?

beelee

@beelee Not sure but this might allow Infantry to build any unit

the infantryman can have the options:
<option name="canProduceUnits" value="true"/>
<option name="canProduceXUnits" value="1"/>

Unternehmer

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@beelee Not sure but this might allow Infantry to build any unit

the infantryman can have the options:
<option name="canProduceUnits" value="true"/>
<option name="canProduceXUnits" value="1"/>

I have already written about these options in this thread above.

beelee

@unternehmer said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

You don't have any <option name='tuv' value='?'/> for this unit "Fortification".
How do you motivate the AI to buy this unit? Or am I wrong and in your game the AI buys fortifications in sufficient numbers?

Sadly the AI doesn't work well in this mod of the Global 40 game, so I don't use it. @RogerCooper has a lot of maps that are AI compatible. He may be able to answer better

beelee

@unternehmer said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@beelee Not sure but this might allow Infantry to build any unit

the infantryman can have the options:
<option name="canProduceUnits" value="true"/>
<option name="canProduceXUnits" value="1"/>

I have already written about these options in this thread above.

yes I saw that. I thought you would want the infantry to only buy trenches is why i mention it

Unternehmer

@beelee said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@unternehmer still not sure what you're asking but I have Infantry can place, not produce, so you gotta buy them, 1 Fortification per Infantry. The only way I could get it to work was by activating the Game Properties "More Constructions with Factory" "More Constructions without Factory" and "Unlimited Constructions" and then Player Enforcing the 1:1 Infantry to Fortification.


<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="Fortification" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
<option name="attack" value="0"/>
<option name="defense" value="0"/>
<option name="isConstruction" value="true"/>
<option name="constructionType" value="Fortification"/>
<option name="constructionsPerTerrPerTypePerTurn" value="99"/>
<option name="maxConstructionsPerTypePerTerr" value="99"/>
<option name="requiresUnits" value="infantry"/>
<option name="unitPlacementOnlyAllowedIn" value="Hainan:Paulau Island:Marianas:Caroline Islands:Marshall Islands:Guam:Wake Island:Midway:Johnston Island:Line Islands:Aleutian Islands:New Britain:Solomon Islands:New Guinea:Ceylon:Dutch New Guinea:New Hebrides:Fiji:Gilbert Islands:Samoa:Philippines:Java:Borneo:Sumatra:Celebes:Hawaiian Islands:Okinawa:Formosa:Iwo Jima:French Madagascar"/>
</attachment>

So triplea will allow 1 Infantry to place as many Fortifications as you have, thus the Player Enforce.

Edit
Also triplea will allow you to take the Fortification as a casualty which is not wanted, so PE there as well

Dear @beelee,

I have found a solution:

Turn 0:

The infantryman has an option:
<option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:materials"/>

The materials unit has an option:
<option name="isInfrastructure" value="true"/>
(does not participate in battle and is destroyed / captured on defeat).

Turn 1a:

The Player / the AI purchases field fortification unit.
For example, "trench unit_new" (6 attack / 0 defense / 0 movement / 1 HP) for 1 PU
(6 attack to motivate AI to buy this trench)

This unit “trench unit_new” has the options:
<option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:trench unit"/>
<option name="consumesUnits" value="1:materials"/>

"trench unit" is a normal long-term fortification with 0 attack / 0 defense / 0 movement / 1 HP.

Turn 2a:

If the Player / the AI decides to not purchase any field fortification units, then there is Turn 1b.

Turn 1b:

This way both AI and Player can use various field units (trenches, bunkers, mines etc.) and AI will always have some motivation to purchase and place them.

wc_sumpton

@Unternehmer

Question, why use 'materials'?

"trench unit" requires "infantry", so have "trench unit_new" consume that infantry:

   <!--Happens during placement phase-->
   <option name="consumesUnits" value="1:infantry"/>
   <!--Happens during the endTurn phase after placement-->
   <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:trench unit"/>
   <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:infantry"/>

Just a thought.

Cheers...

Unternehmer

@wc_sumpton said in How to produce trenches & fortifications without factory?:

@Unternehmer

Question, why use 'materials'?

"trench unit" requires "infantry", so have "trench unit_new" consume that infantry:
   
   <option name="consumesUnits" value="1:infantry"/>
   
   <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:trench unit"/>
   <option name="createsUnitsList" value="1:infantry"/>
Just a thought.

Cheers...

Dear @wc_sumpton,

1.) We have 3 types of field fortifications in the TripleA (“constructions” in real life, but I say “field fortifications” to avoid any confusion with “isConstruction” option used for units in TripleA), right?

temporary (infantry trenches, artillery/tanks caponiers, wooden mantlets, pavise shields, etc.)

They can only be 1 per unit using them: 1 pavise shield per 1 archer.

They cannot remain in this territory if the unit leaves the territory: if archer leaves, the pavise shield should be auto-removed from the game.

permanent (bunkers, walls, etc.)

They can be more than 1 per unit using them. The TripleA allows to stockpile them: multiple bunkers per infantryman.

They should be placed in territories where units are and only 1 per turn per unit (of course this units should be allowed to place them): 1 legionary can only place up to 1 wall per turn, 100 legionaries can only place up to 100 wall per turn, etc.

They can be stockpiled: no max limit.

They remain in the territory if the unit leaves.

mines (anti-infantry mines, anti-tank mines, anti-cavalry cheveaux de fries, etc.)
They have all features of permanent field fortifications mentioned above + some additional features like their ability to inflict damage to the enemy units and be (if necessary) suicide.

My solution allows to place all 3 types of units within a single infantryman with a huge variety of sub-modifications:

1 infantryman can for example place only up to 1 item per turn (either 1 trench or 1 bunker or 1 anti-infantry mine or 1 anti-tank mine, etc.) while also having an opportunity to upgrade himself into more elite unit.

2.) Moreover, the infantryman remains mobile and not stuck (I have seen some maps with “trench infantry units” carrying trenches with themselves. Or stuck immobile with trench put on them and then the player needs to purchase and place units that cancel the immobile status – it should be avoided as it is too complicated for the AI)

3.) Moreover, in my solution the AI has enough motivation to buy all these types of field fortification. There is no need for any Player Enforce and therefore the game is suitable for Player-vs-AI gameplay.

4.) One more bonus of my solution:
unit can either move (leave the territory) or stay in the territory (then createsUnitsList at the end of the turn) and place the field fortification only next turn.
Therefore a unit is not allowed to move and to place field fortification on the same turn, like in real life (either march&relocate or storm&assault or stay&entrench. But not everything simultaneously!)

RogerCooper

@unternehmer I think everyone here is going for excessive complexity. Professional armies always build field fortifications of a type appropriate for the conflict. There should not be a need to have a separate PU cost or choices about what type to build. Just have the units make the field fortifications for free and use triggers or special attacks to remove excessive numbers of fortifications. Or ignore the entire issue and give the units extra strength on defense.