Proposed Map: Domination 1941

[Cernel]

@black_elk said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:

@beelee Yeah it's one of those things you almost wish was a mapview feature that could be switched on the fly. Cause it basically makes it easier to tell where the boundaries are when panned out.

I kinda prefer the black myself, but I'm also a bit of a minimalist when it comes to maps hehe. Some of my aesthetic preferences are showing here in terms of color choices, and a stripped down look, but I also think it should at least look decent with the details/reliefs turned off.

So here was my quick solution to the circles. Basically I just blobbed 'em, but tried to leave enough room so that those tiles could still fit a circle at like 200 px in diameter, like about the same amount of space. You know just so it can function for 1914-18 style games too if one wanted like with a roundel paintover or whatever, but more consistent here with the rest of the board, which doesn't have any circles. So Berlin, London etc they're still kinda circular in shape of course, but not like perfect circles, more like potatoes, which I think works a bit better for this one. Obviously we can clean that stuff up a bit, but again just to give an impression.

@black_elk I admire the work and the enthusiasm, but I didn't imagine I would ever see a map more distorted than Sieg's World At War on some relative distances in Europe.
A thing that - in my opinion - is very bad in World At War is the fact that Berlin is closer to Stalingrad than to Moscow.
Berlin - Moscow - Stalingrad is like the ideal triangle which is the strategic focus of any minimally historical WW2 game, although a better triangle (if the game strongly aims at realism) would actually be Berlin - Moscow - Baku: getting wrong the relative placement of such zones is likely the worst thing one can do in a WW2 game as far as map-drawing goes.
In World At War, while Berlin is unfortunately closer to Stalingrad than to Moscow, at least Berlin is closer to Moscow than to Baku (Azerbaijan).
In Domination, Berlin is as close to Moscow as to Volgograd and farther from Baku, which makes Domination arguably a little better map than World At War here.
Now, instead, I'm seeing a map in which Berlin is not only closer to Stalingrad than to Moscow, but in which going from Berlin to Baku takes the same total movement as going from Berlin to Moscow.
Whereas in this map the distances "Berlin to Moscow" and "Berlin to Baku" are the same (9 movements in either case), in reality they are, respectively, 1609 km and 3058 km!
Moreover, the mere voyage from Berlin to Moscow shows huge distortions: it is faster to reach Moscow from Berlin by going first south-west (!) for a while and thereafter all the way on a southern arc through Galicia and Donetsk, instead of moving through the realistically shorter route through Prussia, Vilnius, the Vitebsk province and the Smolensk province.
Here it is a visualization of what I'm saying:

Also, here Italy looks like a mix between WW1 borders and something it never happened. On the north, it is apparently missing Trento, Bolzano and Meran - all which were taken from Austria right after WW1 -, so it looks like it is the Italy which existed before WW1, whereas in the north-east it is so expanded into Slavic territory that it was not like that even after the conquest of Jugoslavia in 1941 (because the Germans took the north-eastern half of Slovenia for themselves, while here it looks like a situation in which Italy occupies all or almost all of Slovenia).

And Bulgaria in WW2 got a Mediterranean coastline only after the Germans invaded Greece (and, at that point, the Bulgarians also had enough of Jugoslavia (mostly in what is now North Macedonia) that they shared an extensive frontline with the also enlarged Italian Albania). So, this Bulgaria is not really representing anything at any single point in WW2 history.

[Black_Elk]

@cernel Thanks for the feedback dude! So I think you're hitting on a couple different issues, that exist in tension and could be addressed in different ways.

So obviously we're in the process of repurposing a WW1 map here, that was itself a repurpose from what I'd drawn originally (mostly with the Official boards in mind), but with quite a bit of blobbing and reshaping of tiles in many places at various points along the way.

In terms of whether a TT is shaped correctly, with the right connections for our currently very fuzzy WW2 timeline, we can certainly still change that stuff, by redrawing Bulgaria or a different squiggle in Northern Italy or whatever hehe.

The relative distance is another issue. It sounds like the simplest solution to the distance issue you mentioned is to further divide some tiles to get closer to the desired amount of space between point A and point B?

Distance being the number of division/TTs between 2 given tiles, as opposed to the actual distance as the crow flies. The answer is fairly simple I'd think - just add more lines or impassible terrain features or whatever until we get the desired effect (X number of turns to get from here to there) I mean right? hehe

Clearly this map is wildly distorted from the getgo, purely by virtue of the way Europe is displayed. It's hard to just say ok Moscow is here, as if the map was Mercator, cause the entire interior of Asia has been totally morphed. So it's not quite like opening a WW2 map book, but rather trying to get the weird ass A&A boards to somehow harmonize with a world projection that (while still totally distorted) nevertheless might look slightly less cartoonish than say, our maps for Classic/Revised/Global, which are basically unrecognizable prior to being labelled.

One of the big problems is trying to strike a compromise between say Classic or Revised (where Moscow is what, like somewhere in Siberia? lol it's definitely East of the Urals there) vs something that could potentially work with that, but while also not looking like the entire thing is a big unrecognizable blob. Little blobs still being distorted, that's one thing, but the shape of the entire globe being way off is another, and that's what we were given with A&A. I'd like it to work also for Classic or V3 or Global, any of the official A&A boards, just under this style of projection.

I think the fact that you can tell where some of that stuff even is, without my writing labels on the board, is a bit of a triumph honestly, even if you know that there is some wild distortion going on here hehe.

I agree though, it's got issues. I'm not sure what the suggestion here is though. I mean the entire interior or the Eurasian landmass is heavily morphed and redrafting Europe now is going to be headaches, so I'd prefer to keep what we can in place, and just add/remove some lines, rather than redrawing an entire continent, which takes forever.

The only way I can even tell where some stuff is relative to other stuff, is because I drew a bunch of lines and relative shapes that were somewhat more accurate (in terms of recognizable ballpark shapes), at least in the contours, and the Hepps did the same again, and now I'm coming back to it again 5 years later, and trying to change stuff for WW2 theme.

Redrafting any given tile or several at once, means that the shape of something else nearby changes, so I'm reluctant to say redraw say all of Russia, because that's a massive pain, and will probably just fuck up everything in a big cascade of redrafting lol.

There's also the question of purpose and function too, cause again, this is a boardgame, not an atlas for planning a road trip hehe. So with that in mind, what would you like me to alter?

I mean if the goal is just to get the counts up along that southern path, we could divide Carpathia in two, divide Eastern Ukraine in 2, really any of those tiles in the Caucasus could be divided in 2. They're probably vestigial remnants of political lines I drew initially, or some blob Hepps crafted for his WW1 ideas. Nothing has to be set in stone there though. If you want more lines, lets put em in now, is what I'm saying. I'm all for it!
Do you want me to just go to town there? Or if you got a line you want specifically, draw it up and I'll add it. I mean that's why I'm here today haha

It's very hard to draw a map that could serve as a guide for both WW1 and WW2, or for any period, which was my idea for the projection. I wanted to make something that other people could use, not just for a single purpose. Clearly you'd have to redraw some things, but the goal is to make it so one wouldn't have to redraw everything, just erase or alter a few lines here and there. For me, the divisions were draft guides, not a suggested playscale, if that makes sense, but then people wanted to just use it to make a map, so that's kinda what happened lol. Anyhow, will check back later, but thanks again for the notes. I'll rework those tiles you highlighted so they fit better for WW2.

Part of the problem, from the perspective of a draft that is heavily divided, is that if all tiles become tiny little blobs, it starts to become difficult to discern one from the next. Like say I divided Czechoslovakia into 4 tiles instead of 2. I can imagine someone coming along and being perhaps confused (because so much distortion is occurring generally) that they might think Bohemia is the wrong blob, and then make the whole region smaller than intended by leaving out a tile when assigning control. I think this has happened already many times in Russia, sometimes by me, sometimes by Hepps. In the shift from 1900 to 1914 and now to the 1940s. Mainly because people are less familiar with that geography in Russia than say Europe, it's easy for confusion to enter in there. But that's part of why I was reluctant to do too much too fast. If it was a micro-hex you could change TTs around more easily, but then you'd have a map that's just a thousand hexes, and you're sorta back to square one again, having to actually draw it up from scratch.

I think the best thing for me to do, is take that region you highlighted and divide everything larger there into 2 or more tiles between say Moscow and Baku. I think right now the focus is on advancing Germans rather than Soviets trying to reinforce, but reach works both ways, so that's worth recalling too. We have no units or forces or anything to go off right now, so we don't know where the fronts would stabilize, or which TTs would need to be larger to support stacking there, I mean beyond the capitals which are more obvious. In my vision, half these lines get removed to make a more Global or even Midscale board, but Kurt wants something more Domination-esque, so we're kinda working 2 directions at once. At this phase more divisions are probably better than fewer, cause they can always be erased quickly, but drawing them out takes a while.

Best Elk

ps. one last related thought, but I think it's worth separating what I'm doing here (doing with the baseline I mean) from the specific final map that one chooses to create from it. The more accuracy you want to a specific timeline/theme, the more work you'll have to do in changing some stuff around. More work actually drawing on the map, and using the utilities to build the map, rather than just reassigning control of stuff in an XML.

In an ideal world, we'd have one giant world map which could work for many periods, and that was more user friendly (eg not require map design skills, but just XML skills) but then that clearly involves some compromises with the overall map design. Basically because the minimum amount of space for a given tile to be functional is still pretty large (unless we're talking about Gibraltar or whatever, but I mean for the main front TTs.) So lets say you wanted a Domination board which could work for both WW1 AND WW2, where do we make the compromises? Using your example about shifting borders between Austria/Italy, is it better to have an Alpine tile or an Istria tile that is sorta vaguely halfway between the two periods? Not quite accurate for one or the other, but still vaguely close enough for both if you squint lol, or do you go hardline and just pick one period over the other? Cause that's what's happening with many of those spots you mentioned. You're seeing WW1 divisions/contours with a WW2 display more or less heheh. I mean unless I went in and changed something already, which I did for some spots, but not all of them. Not yet anyway, but I'd like to avoid too much extra work on myself if I can avoid it hehe.

[Cernel]

@black_elk Really, to have a good consistency with real distances, the map would need a general redrawing, as you would need sistematically to follow the principle that, the more to the north the zones are, the wider on average they should be.

However, a minimum of consistency can be injected in the current drawing for the quadrangle Berlin - Moscow - Stalingrad - Baku by a combination of border removals and additions.

In this image, the border removals are in red and the additions in black. I've also added some corrections just to have a cogent representation of both Bessarabia and the Transnistria territory which the Roumanians gained during the war.

After the changes, there are the following minimum distances, to move between the listed couples of territories.
Berlin - Moscow = 7 (real 1609 km)
Berlin - Stalingrad = 8 (real 2218 km)
Berlin - Baku = 10 (real 3058 km but actually 3072 km if not cutting through the Sea of Azov)

As you can see, still not very good for planning a road trip, but at least it is loosely consistent with realities.

I also think the border of Crimea should be in the isthmus, but I understand this would leave little space for units placement unless you make Crimea into a circle or anyway bigger.

Italy should be certainly redrawn pretty much almost completely. The current drawing is very bad for WW2. Other than what I said before for the northern and north-eastern frontiers, I suggest splitting the peninsula (that is all mainland Italy except the Po valley and the Alps) into two parts, with the two land-to-land borders representing the Gothic and Gustav lines. Alternatively, it can be split into three parts, showing also the Transimene Line.

Regarding the part of Tyrol (which Italy annexed from Austria as a consequence of WW1 and renamed into the two Italian regions of Trentino and Alto Adige), the map may be sufficiently parcelled to be shown as a territory (but I'm not sure it is). Else, you may draw the border somewhere in the middle of it ("vaguely halfway between the two periods", as you said) (like following the current border between the Italian regions of Trentino and Alto Adige but cutting Bolzano, which would be about the border between the prince-bishopric of Trento and the county of Tyrol during the High Middle Ages), so that it doesn't look too bad in either World War scenario.

[Black_Elk]

@cernel Looks great! That's what we'll do!

I mean once we know vaguely where stuff is supposed to end up with the divisions and such, I can pull up regional maps and starting dialing the contours so it looks good. We can do sensible labelling at that point, for people to know what they're dealing with, or what to change if they wanted a different timeline. When I do the Russia stuff, we'll fix up Crimea, and do the Slovakia and Bulgaria and Romania stuff too. I think we should prob prioritize WW2 as the basis there, though we might tweak a few things to keep a WW1 option on the table without too much erasing or disbelief, I think WW2 will be a more useful reference point though, since that's how the rest is shaping up.

Yeah I agree on Italy for sure. I think we should redraw it entirely. I think it was probably a leftover relic from the very designs that just never got polished lol. I like your ideas for the divisions, let's do that! I'll sit on it for a couple days, in case we get a few more draft ideas on the divisions. Then we'll go to town next week. It already looks a lot better to me at the quick glance then when I started, so this feedback is rad! Thanks man

ps. How do you feel about the region around Georgia/Dagestan? Hepps added in that mountain range, and I kinda like how it works for a road block. I feel like the whole Caucasus/Middle east could use a bit of a rework too down there, since that's still very WW1-ish and kinda cartooned out for that purpose probably. The way it is right now, that'll be a major chokepoint I'd think. I wanted to settle on the regional contours first, but I think Armenia/Syria/Iran/Iraq could all get a bit of a refinement, and then maybe that could play into how we divide the approaches there. We don't have any SZ yet, but I kinda like the idea of making the Black Sea/Caspian a bit more engaging somehow.

[beelee]

@black_elk I Dig it ! Rock On !

[Black_Elk]

Here I had an hour free, so I blocked in Cernel's suggestions for those Soviet tiles, just so we could get it roughed out. I'll do the Italy and Balkans stuff tomorrow.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cpi8ksdcnohpgt/TripleA_4k_baseline_oceans_repainted.png?dl=0

[Cernel]

@black_elk said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:

ps. How do you feel about the region around Georgia/Dagestan? Hepps added in that mountain range, and I kinda like how it works for a road block. I feel like the whole Caucasus/Middle east could use a bit of a rework too down there, since that's still very WW1-ish and kinda cartooned out for that purpose probably. The way it is right now, that'll be a major chokepoint I'd think. I wanted to settle on the regional contours first, but I think Armenia/Syria/Iran/Iraq could all get a bit of a refinement, and then maybe that could play into how we divide the approaches there. We don't have any SZ yet, but I kinda like the idea of making the Black Sea/Caspian a bit more engaging somehow.

Well, the relative position of Georgia and Azerbaijan are clearly highly distorted, as Azerbaijan is realistically south-east of Georgia, whereas here it is north-east of it. I assume Georgia is actually representing Georgia and Armenia together (plus the Azerbaijan exclave to the south-west of Armenia). I suppose this map is sufficiently detailed rather to show Georgia, Armenia and Sovietic Azerbaijan as different territories. About that, also Dagestan (comprising Chechenya , I suppose) and Kalmykia can be drawn as separate territories, and I actually incidentally realized about that already in my previous split proposals. Anyway, the position of Azerbaijan relatively to Georgia is really not a problem and can remain as it is.

Much less acceptable, however, is the fact that the Caucasus mountains are touching Azerbaijan to the south-west of it. This makes blatantly no sense because (in reality) they actually delimit Azerbaijan on the north (beside a small piece of Azerbaijan which is in Europe). This means that the Caucasus mountains are largely misplaced and make little sense in general.

However, the impassables in this map (in general) are quite clearly far from realistic, as one can see from the mere existence of the Ural mountains (which are rather small mountains and much less of an obstacle than many other mountains like the Alps (and I'm not suggesting to add the Alps)).

Like, the fact that there is some sort of impassable barrier between almost the entire border between Mongolia and the Sovietic Union makes really no sense, but really almost all impassables I see make no sense. I'm sure they have been added merely to make the board more interesting to play on, with little concern to realism, so this is a map-making choice.

All this said, if the Caucasus mountains would be drawn in the right place, I can tell you that there are three main ways to move through them: through the coastline to the west of the Caucasus (where there are simply no mountains because they don't reach the Kerch strait), through the Darial Gorge and through Derbent (that is simply skirting the Caspian sea).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darial_Gorge

Generally speaking, mountains have so many passes that you really need a much more detailed map than this one for them to make sense as impassables anywhere but maybe a very few cases unless you use them better to define crossed borders. By crossed borders I mean those borders that have a single point shared between two zones, like Central United States, Southeast Mexico, Mexico, Western United States in Global 1940 or a so-called "quadripoint" in real life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Corners_Monument

[Black_Elk]

@cernel Yeah I kinda had the same thoughts a few times hehe

The whole dilemma with this section at the center of the board, as opposed to the other regions/continents, is that you get all these weird North/South/East/West dismorphs. Basically it comes from englarging the surrounding SZ areas in most cases. I think it may be possible to upscale the Black Sea slightly (I already made it pretty large hehe) but then all of a sudden somewhere else will feel visually squished or just so off. I'd say the majority of compression is happening right there on the board. I trying to redraw Kazakhstan now would be a bit of a pain, cause of where everything else it now located, and so you almost need weird abstractions. I think that's also why Hepps prob added a few more blobs in various locations. The mountains in place, I left in place, but stuff added to the north is basically to stitch in what was missing over an inset. So I don't know. I kinda agree on the mountains.

On the other hand having sorta more random impassible just as visual/geometric type features is helpful. Ways to block a path, that aren't just "the Sahara" or whatever heheh. I kinda liked that concept, but it's definitely abstract. You know, like Elephants over the alps, there's probably a way no matter where it is. Upside I guess is that they could always be easily erased to flag back to more political boundaries, but I didn't see a strong reason to start erasing yet. Eventually I'd like to get something Kurt says is like "yep" that'll do, and then I'll save it out svg, then go back and carve it up into Global, or maybe make some alts for those older games, but I like the idea of it living as a game too. I think Domination has a nice ring to it, but really you kinda need two versions of the baseline, one that takes you up to WW2 and after, and another to maybe cover stuff more pre-20th century to WW1 interwar. The suggestion you raised about distance to Moscow vs Baku or the earlier point about distance from the German line to Paris via Belgium, is interesting. The only advantage to much smaller discrete tiles is starting ownership of TTs at a given date, but otherwise it's like yeah, do we really need danzig? I mean of course we need the Album, but I mean the tiny TT. Stuff like that, I don't know, if it's small enough it's easy to draw back in though. So yeah, sorta makes sense to default more to a distance "movement in turns" frame for some of this stuff. I think it probably makes sense to do a topo morph pretty soon for the mountains. Just to reshape if it makes sense. I tried to wing it, but I'd like to go back in and do something clean. Obviously you can't get an exact morph the exact way everything has been stretched, but you don't really need to. Like WOPR did for that v3, you can just isolate all the land (white) erase it to transparency, but keep the black and the blue solid. Then lay that over a roughly stretched topo morph and sorta push/pull till you get a relief that looks pretty decent that way if somewhat inexact for everything, but it still gives a good visual impression. You know with the units and decorative elements hidden, but I just mean like the visual sweep of the topo there. Kinda subtle and more backgrounded I guess, without the large flag transparencies or graphics stuff (that should be on a separate layer in the vector like the Dog suggested). But I'd like to achieve something like that, but at 16000 and for the Domination projection and that I could then make into the Global 1940 divisions or Classic or whatever.

[Black_Elk]

Ok so here's a quick pass on Italy and the Balkans. Obviously some stuff is a little weird from the general warp, but I tried to block it in a bit closer to WW2. For Italy there's a bit of a dilemma between deciding how carved up to make it. I like the general division along the defensive lines mentioned, since they aren't too far off from regional/river boundaries, in case of using a reference for other eras. But like further south, I wasn't sure if we wanted a few spots for Allied landings, to give it the Sicily invasion to Salerno type flavor? I guess with some SZ divisions you could probably dial that a bit more. But whatever, just trying to get a block in going hehe.

If you wanted to the Po line to split that Venetia TT more horizontally I guess we could do that, but it gets a little weird. Dividing Italy entirely by German defensive lines later in the war probably wouldn't be terribly helpful for maps in any other era, cause it's like a very specific point of reference there, as opposed to drawing provinces, but I guess this is a WW2 board now right lol. Anyhow, I'll let someone take a red marker to it, before I put in too much more work. It's kinda exhausting lol.

[Cernel]

@black_elk I wouldn't split Sicily into two or more territories on this scale, the same for the already relatively small Albania. Similarly, maybe it would be better merging your Calabria and Apulia territories, merely on the consideration that they are now relatively quite small (so they have a dart of space for units placement). Also, the Bulgar Macedonia is too small a territory. About this, maybe I've been misunderstood: since here Jugoslavia is given as neutral, Albania and Bulgaria should not touch each other because that happened only after Jugoslavia was carved up. You may want to draw the internal boundaries of Jugoslavia as to represent such carving, however.

The Gothic line I guess is acceptable, even though it is drawn much more to the north of where it should be. If it is a problem of space, I'd say there's no need to show the Transimene line (so the two territories divided by the Transimene line may be merged).

I suppose you forgot to give Italy the Dodecanese.

[Black_Elk]

@cernel Yeah I guess it really does depend on whether you want 40 or 41. The Balkans is such a headache heheh. OK so fewer divisions in Italy then.

I mean on some level, it's like you could just start slapping down random nodes and curves or something. Rather than having me draw it out for each iteration. I'm trying to think of a more expedient design for drafting.

Obviously this would be somewhat simpler if we used a standard projection of any kind, but the downside there is the map would just be too damn big I think hehe. You'd be just scrolling forever. So I guess this is bound to be a compromise. I mean I can just break out the "<insert start date month/year>" for the rough political boundaries on a separate layer or something. But seems like what we need is kinda like Hex blob for the tiles, with smaller zones that are likely to be erased at a more midscale game. The paint job I did was not really a suggested start date or TT possessions, I just wanted to show the world colored in, cause otherwise it's easy to tune stuff out. So I used a vaguely global 1940 paint up lol. Kurt said 1941 though.

Good call! Yeah I'm sure I just missed with the paint bucket, so many tiny blobs heheh

[Schulz]

@black_elk

BTW Tibet was independent. Japan controlled all Kuril islands but North Sakhalin was belong to the Soviets. I see Mozambique is divided. Also it is better to give Burma to the Raj.

With there are so many Allies nations. Is one piece Japan really the best option for gameplay? I doubt. For example WaW would be really broken if Japan was unified. One piece Japan might be unstopable in this scenario. Plus it would probably force the US investing only European fronts. I would like to learn the opinions of the community.

Also what about the Soviet-Japanese war? Should they really at war with each other?

[Black_Elk]

@schulz Good eye! hehe I guess I should probably repaint it more 41-ish in some other spots too. Just so I don't forget where we're supposed to be headed with this stuff, or keep missing the same spots with the paint bucket lol. This is like halfway there-ish I guess. Not sure how one wants to assign control in the Balkans, whether all to G, or some kind mini faction, or like who annexed/occupied what and when hehe, but anyway, did a few colors to get a better feel there. More shades then we need, but just to give a quick pass. I'll wait till we got a start date before finishing that out.

Not sure on the Japan Q. To me it would depend on the forces I guess and the SZ design. For NAP with the Soviets, I kinda like total war conditions there, but it's always problematic. I've never found a great solution that hums for me. I think it would be nice if Russia could defend itself at least though, just so it doesn't go too Classic up there lol. On the other hand, towards the endgame I kind of enjoy if Japan can mix it up. So again, hard call. I think the focus for the IJA should be in China though. I mean that tied down what, like a million dudes? There should be incentives not to galivant up north as Japan on account of that, provided China doesn't just get flattened immediately like in all the official A&A boards heheh.

Oh also, while thinking about the start date, I think it's possible (depending on the turn order sequence) to cram a fair amount into the first round. Like if you wanted Europe to feel more early 41 and the Pacific to feel more late 41, I think that's doable, provided Japan and the US go at the very end of the sequence. Like if you wanted to design a more Barbarossa thing over here, but a Pearl Harbor vibe over there, just make sure the turn order sequence feels kinda right for that I'd say.

In 41, Italy doesn't have much presence in East Africa, if any, so the scramble there would need to get fixed. I showed roughly where Free France would start, if all the rest of the Blue was Vichy (to Germany in Africa/Med and Japan in Indochina). I think we could still keep a bluish kinda tint to it maybe, like in the reliefs, to get that point across, but easier to just assign control to G, so they're more dynamic. If the Blue was starting G ownership, it would allow the British and Americans more zone to expand. I'd do the same in France, like everywhere until Paris is liberated. Control of spaces outside the main core Capital zones should probably be starting owner Attackable Neutral, which would solve a lot of issues with the regular A&A games and liberation weirdness. In other words when Torch goes down, or D-Day, those TTs in N. Africa or Normandy should go to control of the conquering power, rather than returned Free France. Better for the gameplay once the Allies cross the Atlantic I'd think.

For total number of player-nations/factions, I don't think we need a crazy gang of factions overall, such that the sequence takes forever, but I think another smaller Axis faction for parity with the Allies could potentially be fun Again the turn order sequence is pretty important to make that work/feel right though. Basically to avoid a bunch of can opening nonsense. I did the colors more for style than a suggested number of factions here.

[Schulz]

@black_elk

Yes. Japan having a very easy time to steamroll China and Asian Russia is very big problem for a WWII scenario. It is really need to be addressed.

[Cernel]

@schulz It is very easy to address, actually. Under any realistic representation of production values, Japan is going to be so weak that can be handily crushed by using only a quarter of the United States power against it. The only way Japan can do anything like you describe is if you are making a map in which it has a production riduculously above any historical values of any kind.

Both Japan and Italy were not the first world countries they are today. Today Japan is the third richest country in the world (about a quarter the GDP of the United States) and Italy has a higher GDP than Russia. Back in WW2, they were backward and scarcely industrialized countries. Both Japan and Italy had about the same productivity per person, but Japan was stronger because of having more persons in Japan and a more valuable empire. In either country, most of the population was still living almost like in the Middle Ages.

[Schulz]

@cernel If Japan and Italy is going to be weakened, wouldn't Germany need to be unrealistically super strong in order to have a relatively balanced game? With realistic production values, probably the Soviet Union would be designed to doomed to fall.

There is actually another method. Make China impassable and no Japanese-Soviet war. No war with China and the Soviet Union means Japan can afford to have less production values.

[Black_Elk]

So earlier I mentioned that is relatively easy to add circles back in, once we know what's what.

Here's a rough example of how that might present, using circles at 250 for the Capital spots.

As always, it looks a bit weird doing that for Italy for some reason, although at 250 the circle just about lands where the Lines would be hehe. I slapped some fast flags down real quick just for flavor.

I'm not opposed to the circles in principle. I just think if using them, then there needs to be some kind of rough parity around the map, so it doesn't look oddball only having them in a very few places. Another option would be to do some beefy circles like this for capitals but a few smaller circles elsewhere for other key spots that make sense. Not sure what look people prefer, but just for a quickie thought I'd throw something together. I think this looks alright myself, but I don't know what others would dig lol

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zrfcz78w7ucqi7/TripleA_4k_flags_with_circles.png?dl=0

[Cernel]

@schulz There are Europe-only maps, like NWO, Europe and Europe 1940. A realistic global map would be merely like an Europe-only map with also a Japan that has some minor impact, since the war was indeed over 90% decided in Europe alone: Japan was just a minor distraction.

If you can balance an Europe-only map, you can take that map, add Japan, India, Australia, China and make the United States and the Sovietic Union a little stronger (China, India and Australia together alone should already be about as productive as Japan but militarily weaker at start game). Any other additions are next to irrelevant.

[Cernel]

@black_elk said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:

So earlier I mentioned that is relatively easy to add circles back in, once we know what's what.

Here's a rough example of how that might present, using circles at 250 for the Capital spots.

As always, it looks a bit weird doing that for Italy for some reason, although at 250 the circle just about lands where the Lines would be hehe. I slapped some fast flags down real quick just for flavor.

I'm not opposed to the circles in principle. I just think if using them, then there needs to be some kind of rough parity around the map, so it doesn't look oddball only having them in a very few places. Another option would be to do some beefy circles like this for capitals but a few smaller circles elsewhere for other key spots that make sense. Not sure what look people prefer, but just for a quickie thought I'd throw something together. I think this looks alright myself, but I don't know what others would dig lol

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zrfcz78w7ucqi7/TripleA_4k_flags_with_circles.png?dl=0

@black_elk I'm personally not a fan of simple circles but for anything which has too little space for placements, but I'm not strongly against them.

Yes, the circle in Italy looks quite bad and, like Tokyo, here and in WAW, doesn't make much sense, because the city was very much next to only one of the seas (in case of Rome, the Tyrrhenian), so what does it mean naval bombarding Rome from the Adriatic or naval bombarding Tokyo from the Sea of Japan?

However, the circles for the capitals match the big roundels nicely, so that is a plus.

This said, I'm not sure what the Indian circle is representing, but New Delhi is not there (this beside the fact that Calcutta was more important).

As for the Sovietic Union, it may be good having a circle also for Leningrad (to have a big territory in a cleaner way than enormously distorting the territory) and for Kuybyshev (which was the back-up capital of the Soviet Union had Moscow fallen). I suppose Moscow, Leningrad and Kuybyshev can all be capitals of the Sovietic Union, in the sense that nothing capital-related would happen before all three are lost (that is the TWW way, not the WAW way).

However, in cases like the United States, Canada, Australia, India and Italy, there is the problem that the capitals are not the most important cities, so you have an economic capital and a politic capital, and usually the economic capital is more important. For example, it is certainly economically worse for Italy to lose Milan than to lose Rome. A similar observation can be made, mutatis mutandis, for, respectively, New York and Washington, and so on. This is particularly extreme in case of Australia, where the capital is economically next to irrelevant and there is not a single undisputed economic capital.

[Black_Elk]

@cernel Yeah, all that makes sense, and then there's the added downside that if someone wanted to go back in later and change something, and you have a bunch of circle stuff that needs to be erased, that's a total chore. I'm not a really a fan. They might be expedient, but also a crutch. I think the cons sorta outweigh the pros, when it comes to circles hehe. Better to do it up without them I think.

Oh also, just since we're on the subject, it might be nice to just nix the whole concept of capitals entirely. Almost all of the gamey distortions in the A&A endgame come from the capital capture dynamic and looting the purse there. If that aspect of the game didn't exist (or was changed sufficiently) perhaps a more interesting and historical endgame could materialize.