💥 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread

[Black_Elk]

I dig it!

Main question for the moment would be the naval movement M2 vs M3 dilemma for ships.

The main pro for M2 would be simplicity and ease of use for the AI. The main con is that the G40 SZ map assumes M3 naval bases, so nerfing all ships down to M2 but using that G40 SZ map seems somewhat problematic.

A possible solution might be to only have a few naval units at M3, like say the transport. Since the transport unit is defenseless in the v3/G40 ruleset, this might tamp down on the time it take for the AI to calculate stuff. Although the transport doesn't have a hitpoint, it still has TUV value, so you'd think the machine would still target them and try to defend them, but I'm not sure what kind of playpattern behavior it will create. The AI may just throw them forward and then let them die undefended constantly, to advance their ground units. Not an unsound strategy even in PvP play, but perhaps not really what we want.

I think there's also a pretty good chance that Naval Bases in OOB G40 in tripleA may confuse the HardAI. Because the machine is probably calculating based on current position and M2, unless there is an NB involved, in which case they may just goof their positioning all the time. Just seems like one of those areas where the OOB rules probably screw the capability of the HardAI to play well or at least marginally better hehe. I'd think it would be simpler to have all the movement rate attached to the naval units directly, and constant, rather than being changed/boosted by an adjacent naval base unit. I'd be curious to see what actually slows the AI down though, whether it's M3 ships per se, or just the fact that there is that variability entering into because of the Naval Bases?

I mean you'd think the machine would be able to handle M3 fairly easily, because Fighters are already M4 and involved in basically every naval exchange during normal play. I guess there are many more ships on the board typically than aircraft though. But then if M3 wasn't for every ship, but just some ship types, perhaps that wouldn't be as pronounced? I believe we tried Cruisers and Transports at M3 in one of the Global HRs, and something like that might work. The cruiser then becoming the speedy unit, and a more attractive purchase (since in OOB nobody ever buys them lol.) But yeah, that's one to ponder for sure! I don't quite know what would be best.

If the transport unit is M3, and the Cruiser unit is M3, then by default the Cruiser becomes the main escort unit. Meaning the player will usually try to keep a cruiser paired with a transport for defense. Or alternatively maybe the Carrier is the M3 surface unit? This would probably be more thematic, but the carrier is already the best buy and doesn't exactly need much help being an attractive purchase in the standard roster.

Frostion's method was to basically make the Cruiser a relatively cheaper naval unit, but to give it an Anti-Air shot similar to a built in AAgun, which makes them worth buying. Perhaps one doesn't really need a surface ship to move M3?

M3 could perhaps just be for Transports and Submarines, to make the latter more effective on the prowl? This would create a situation where the player is operating from an M2 framework for naval defense and moving the surface fleets most of the time, but with more reach at M3 for the two "weirder" naval units, which are Subs/Transports. I mean they're already weird OOB lol, since they don't create a hostile sea zone by themselves, so maybe that could be part of the rationale there?

Naval movement is probably the most abstract of all the abstractions going on in A&A. I'm not sure that the fastest units in reality necessarily need to be the units that can move the farthest in gameplay. If anything reality would seem to recommend the reverse, like transports at M1 with slow ass escort carriers or whatever defending them. But that's just not the situation in A&A lol. For my part I think Cruisers, Transports, Subs at M3, everything else at M2 could work. M1 is an option for a fodder unit, like Frostion's PT boat, but it has to be pretty cheap I'd think and OOB the cheapest hitpoint on the water is 6 PUs, 8 PUs if you want that hitpoint defend vs aircraft. I'd think the lowest entry point for a fodder ship at M1 would probably be something like 4-5 PUs given the normal pricing of the OOB roster, just so it's at least slightly more expensive than an Inf unit right?

Another option that might be cool is to have the expensive Battleships and Cruisers at M3 along with the M3 transports and subs. This would encourage the sort of big ticket buys that you usually don't see OOB. Battleships and Cruisers at their OOB cost would become worthwhile because M3 is so potent. Carriers, Destroyers would retain value for defense, even at M2 because defending aircraft are so potent, and the DD is needed for ASW. That might get a balance that allows for basically M3 strategic movement, while not going too overboard, and still allowing a somewhat OOB dynamic that fits the map, but just one where the Battleships and Cruisers have that more forward role, and the Carriers and DDs are more like the 'hang back shore up the lines' type units. The gameplay effect would be sort of 'different ships for different roles', but not so far off OOB that's it's like hard to figure out what's going on. Might be a cool way to swing it hehe

ps. So I found an icon I kinda liked for SUB HQ, basically just a dude from a postage stamp lol. Or maybe a periscope view? But it didn't quite read at 54px. Kinda hard to make out at smaller than 100px. You think the HQs could be larger like that? Like if I make them at 100px, we could downsize to 80px of 66px or something and still have it look pretty decent I'd think.

Much smaller than 66 and I start finding the images hard to make out, but otherwise you can cram a fair bit of detail into a 66 pixel circle. Like if one wanted Rommel vs Monty, Patton or Zhukov, or Yamamoto or MacArthur or whoever, we could just make images for that with national themes hehe. Basically just do all the dudes named as "Generals" in the old Iron Blitz A&A cd maybe?

I guess the thought was more generic, but might be cool to have something like that, just to keep in the back pocket.

[TheDog]

@black_elk and others

Naval movement is probably the most abstract of all the abstractions going on in A&A

Maybe we could redesign some of the ship units?

WW2 1941 3Q+ sea battles were broadly split into two actions;

• Convoy, transports moving 10-ish knots with Corvettes and Frigates protecting them from submarines.
• Fleet, surface ships and carriers at speeds of 20+knots. Cruising speed was less.

Transports could move 2 and give them isDestroyer for the Corvettes and Frigates, so just 1 unit.

Destroyers currently are overpowered with their 4"ish guns and multi-role AA, torpedoes, anti sub, jack of all trades and master of none, move 3. Attack reduced to 1/1

Cruisers typically 8" guns, currently not good value for their PU compared to Destroyers, move 3, Attack reduced to 2/2 (twice the attack of Destroyers)

Battleships 15"ish guns with very long range get First Strike

Carriers and Subs listed for completeness.

The above has not been tested, just floating ideas (pun intended )

Thoughts ?

Ship		PU Atk Def Mov  Notes
Transport	8   0   1   2   isDestroyer  (cannot attack surface ships or aircraft)
Destroyer	6   1   1   3   Blockade 1, Bombard 0, isDestroyer
Cruiser		8   2   2   3   Blockade 1, Bombard 2
Battleship	18  4   4   2   Blockade 1, Bombard 4, FirstStrike, 2HP
Carrier		14  0   1   2   2 aircraft, 2HP
Fleet-Carrier	18  0   1   3   3 aircraft, 2HP
Submarine	8   2   2   2   Blockade 2, isSub, FirstStrike

@Black_Elk
My Sub - poor placeholder.

Seeing Patton's helmet, maybe we could do caps/helmets, for the national commanders? You're in charge of graphics, your choice! (some would call that passing the buck)

[Black_Elk]

@thedog Right on!

I'll make a few just in case

[TheDog]

@black_elk
They look good! You will have to scour the the web for these;

Required HQ are;

Britain, Italy, Japan, USA = Air, Army, Fleet HQs
German = Air, Army, Submarine HQs
Finland, USSR = Army HQ only
China = none

[Black_Elk]

Will do. Here's a quick cap/helmet concept for G army, air, navy if you wanted to do something like that more generic?

WW2 in Color? lol

Whatever, you get the idea. In Iron Blitz I think the Generals for Germany were Rommel 5 star, Manstein 4 star, Kesselring 3 Star. I think USA had Eisenhower, Patton, Bradley. Each nation had 3 I think which were the AI players for each Nation. But sorta like pick two or three and throw in an Admiral I guess for good measure right? hehe

We could embellish them with little frames or something, with a secondary color outside the national tint to indicate the type (Navy might have a blue frame for example, Army red frame or whatever), and then steady the contrast of the tiny photographs, isolate the backgrounds so they're more uniform, make sure all the faces and circles are at the same size and such. But that might be kinda cool. Instead of rating them by stars which was the Iron Blitz way of indicating AI difficulty levels, they could just be more abstract command units that get to move around like envisioned. Each nation having only a handful, but just kinda giving that national flare in the unit graphics.

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Currently the maxBuiltPerPlayer is
HQ-Air = 1
HQ-Army = 3
HQ-Fleet =2
HQ-Submarine (Germany only)

However Germany can have more HQ-Army than 3, these are given as national themed reinforcements.

For player simplicity and AI purchasing only one icon per HQ type.

Profiles pics look better than just hats.

[Black_Elk]

@thedog

Sounds good. I banged out like a dozen or so mini portraits, not sure if they fit the bill, but if not I can just keep them in the misc graphics. I was trying a few different options, sometimes I think they look cool against the dark background for a bit more drama. Like here's Ike showing that sort of effect heheh

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Thinking about this more can;

• Axis look left
• Allies look right
• The commanders portrait looks as lifelike/good as possible (not tinted/coloured)
• The portrait is bordered by a circle(porthole) or square(picture frame) of the nations tint/colour.
• Images are 54x54px (could be bigger but they will be truncated in the Battle Calculator, so you decide)

What do you think?

[Black_Elk]

Sounds good. Not sure where I was getting was getting 66 from. I thought that 66 was the max height, but maybe it's just cause Frostion's larger factory unit doesn't display in the calc lol. It's too bad cause 54 is a bit small. I'd go no borders and try to crop in on the face as close as possible in that case, so they still read at that size. I'd think a colored border would probably just get lost in the fuzz. I'll see if I can get something decent going. Here are some quickie examples at 54px

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Just done a quick test in TripleA 2.6 with the image below in the Battle Calculator

The7 horizontal bars are 68x68px (with no truncation) the infantry are the usual 54x54px.

So this means you can have the HQs as bigger images.

[Black_Elk]

Perfect! I'll do them like this for everybody then...

The first set is at 100%, then 150% upscaled with no halo, to show how it would present in game at those scales. I think they look pretty decent. Should cover the bases for people who like a larger unit display.

100%

Upscale 150%

[Black_Elk]

Here's one for G

Upscaled 150%

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Showing my lack of ww2 US commanders, I cannot identify them all. I would have the same problem with all nations including Britain. :flushed_face:

Although it can be done(in the xml), having 6 individual faces for the the 6 US commanders in the purchase panel, it takes up a lot of screen space for just one unit x6. Also they would be called HQ-Army-1, HQ-Army-2, HQ-Army-3 etc.
In the ToolTips they could be individually named and have a small bio. But this should be for all nations.

However I think it would be better to have just 3 images HQ-Air, HQ-Army, HQ-Fleet. Meaning for the US the
HQ-Army could be used 3 times
HQ-Fleet could be used 2 times
HQ-Air could be used 1 time

So I do not know what is best

• portraits of real commanders for each nation or
• an icon representing that HQs function

both have their merits?

[Black_Elk]

So for the little portraits I did the 3 US Generals from Iron Blitz, but also added MacArthur, Nimitz, and Marshall. Sorta like a couple for each theater and the homefront. Like an Iron Blitz plus hehe.

For G I did the Generals from Iron Blitz, then added Doenitz, Guderian, and Valentine Hube just so that those two images would balance with the same number of dudes. Probably everyone would just choose Rommel and Patton I'd guess if it was like pick one in dodge ball lol.

For the Brits I think it was Montgomery and Alexander. Pick two in dodgeball might be fun. I mean instead of pick 6, just depending on how much screen real estate one wants to dedicate to redundant graphics that just add flare.

It may not be useful in game, but it looked cool so I figured might as well bang some out. Abstract symbols for Army/Navy/Air command is better for what you have in mind probably. Still it'd be fun if the game had some commander flavor so who knows maybe someone can figure it out at some point heheh.

[TheDog]

@black_elk

It may not be useful in game, but it looked cool so I figured might as well bang some out.

lol, so yeah carry on doing the art assets, we can all share in them!

For my part I will be using some of the portraits as I really like them, I will pick 3 for each nation, then add a small roundel/flag for the nation identifier and add a small abstract icon for Air, Army, Fleet, Submarine HQ.

So thanks!

[Black_Elk]

Ok I did the pick 6 for the Big 6 there. I tired to veer a bit more towards golden age Hollywood vibes, like out at the movies in terms of the selected dudes. Dipping into the B string a bit and trying to sorta avoid the political figureheads in favor a few randos that just sorta capture a certain look that felt cool. It's not a statement on the best generals or whatever, but just trying to give a spread that felt good. I figure for many people there might be like one or two faces they might recognize, but the others just becoming like generic commander dudes. People can go crazy with it all they like, but A&A style gaming isn't really Hearts of Iron, and there's kinda limited RP potential beyond what they player brings to the table. Still, I tried to nab a few heads that would be palatable, cribbing a few from the A&A Iron Blitz CD mentions but also just sorta looking for the right vibe.

My thought was that by putting em all together in sheets, it'd be easier for me to go in and remove the roundels or do a tint set or whatever, for people who don't want the national roundel. Just seems less insurmountable when it's not like 200 tiny images one at a time, but something I can get a glance on hehe.

I'll do it for the minor nations like Anzac and France and China tomorrow. But least wanted to get us into like v3 territory there

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Oooh shiny, Commander HQ units look the part :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:

[Black_Elk]

Tried my hand at making a slightly larger infantry unit. Not sure if it fits the bill?

I wanted something that looked a bit closer to that TripleA dude at the top of the screen lol

I'm about half way through removing all the roundels to create a sticker set that's easier to manipulate. Like for people who prefer to do a uniform tint and colorize by nation, or to flip the units.

[TheDog]

@black_elk
Yes, a lot of the infantry are at ease, so the action pose does look better.

Check your "chats".

[Black_Elk]

Right on!

Here's a new German Infantry Unit...

He just needs a little more drop shadow to match the others. I'll probably have to paint it out for that. Frostion's drops are kinda tricky to replicate in GIMP, since he had em all in pretty deep perspective. There's probably a plug in or something for that, but I just wanted to get em cranked out, so I went with the default there, hard and fast lol.

I figure the other infantry type can be retained as a paratrooper or whatever hehe.

Here's the big 6 sans roundel....

And then below that is a quick color mask.

They could be colorized to any color really, but just to give an example. I went with the darkest shade of gray I could find for Germany that still had a kiss of color information. So sorta halfway between the boardgame black, and the gray/blue of older editions. For the others just tried to find something reminiscent of the gameboard, so USA is green, Brits are Khaki etc. Trying to make Japan orange like OOB they started to drift pretty close to Italy's brown, so I kept them more in the ochre range. We could spend a bit more time on the mask there and fine tuning the default shades for that, but I just went for something that would give a general vibe. Here's an example with the Germans in a slightly lighter shade of bluish-gray.... This one reminds me a bit more of Classic. I'm sure I could nitpick minute variations on shades of gray forever. We can fine tune it for the final, whatever peeps think makes for a good default.

Here's the quick tint...

Basically I just wanted to see how far I could push it with German blue-gray to almost black. Players might prefer something more midrange, but I just thought it looked kinda cool. Reminiscent of the sculpts in the old box lol

Catch ya on the next round!

Elk