đź’Ą 1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread
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@johnnycat I think that's a totally fair criticism, since I struggled with the same thing too, like just trying to get my head around some of this stuff that felt way different to me. I spent the first year or so testing the openers by just taking control of the entire team and assuming a more PvP type match vs the computer 1v1, like granting the computer a larger income bonus or bid and thinking about it in terms of that sort of challenge.
Until I finally realized that what theDog had in mind was more like taking control of a single Nation and then having the FastAI teammates almost like an albatross hanging around the neck. Or almost as a randomizer, like have an unreliable teammate basically hehe.
The FastAIs deficiencies are offset a bit by the bonuses they are granted when controlled by the computer, so they just get more to work with than the player would. I think this still leaves room for a match where the player can control the entire Side (say Axis, or Allies) just without any of the built-in bonuses being awarded to their side, and perhaps some additional resource modifier to the FastAI (more income per turn, or less cost for maintenance). But the FastAI definitely struggles when trying to coordinate multi-nation attacks or multi-nation defenses vs a human being. Like it just doesn't really anticipate the double hit to take a VC or Factory, or plan for that type of stuff when calculating it's moves, so having that kind of edge over it as the human just leads to blowouts.
The downside to controlling just a single Nation is that the game round feels like it takes much longer, since it's mostly the computer making moves. Sometimes I feel like the battle windows and rolling dice are quite distracting, and often I wish I could just minimize all that out of view to survey the map in a particular area without the camera jumping around to show me what the FastAI is trying to do. I don't mind the pop-up battle screen when I have to give actual input, like a decision to scramble, or to select casualties as defender, but I just mean the sort of 'observer mode' we get thrown into when only controlling 1 nation as opposed to a whole team. Upside I suppose is that you can just sorta tune out and walk away, come back 10 minutes later after the Gymnastics Event Finals have concluded lol. It's just a slightly different gameflow and a different way of painting your nation's colors around the map.
Some of this stuff remains very opaque to me. For example just how exactly to overcome a particular force when say amphibiously assaulting a territory that has Bunkers and dug in defenders. I mean you can just run the battle calc on some stuff to see how things shake out.
Example might be defender has 4 infantry and 2 bunkers. How many units as the attacker, and which unit types to bring to overcome a force like that at odds?
Like I started with 6 infantry Elites all coming along on Cruisers to bombard, odds to the attacker 0% lol
Then I add another Elite, an artillery unit and a tactical bomber - still very low, maybe 2% odds to the attacker. So I keep adding more units and watch how the percentages for a Draw begins to climb, but the chance for Attacker to actually win is still hovering at only like 10% odds.
Then I add in an HQ and suddenly it's like a 50/50 coin flip, even though as the attacker I have way more hitpoints, the attack value penalties coming from Amphib assault make it very challenging to just ballpark it. As the forces get larger towards the cap the numbers tend to stabilize, so the larger engagements are much less swingy (similar to what happens in A&A where the curve flattens and the odds become more predictable) but going in with light forces anywhere has that sort of fuzzy head math getting in the way. In A&A you can quickly count pips to get a ballpark, since there are lots of units that hit at 2s or 3s and you can sorta LL to parse the odds. Harder to do here because there's just a lot of +1 or -1 along the way to complicate the bean counting. I like A&A for it's elegance, but it's also a board game, so the counting house stuff has to kinda assume a playscale that works for ages 12+ and up there, and also that many players probably won't have a calculator on hand. Here the battle calculator is a given, and so we have a bit more flexibility to scale up.
I also really enjoy that idea of building out bases and production on the front lines! Like getting a smaller force into position and then having to hang on by the finger nails. It's probably coming from the old Classic strats from when I first learned how to play Allies, like double factories for India and China, or the factory in South Africa vs like all-in on Carrier builds. That sorta trade off in grand strategy, between expanding frontline production or just building from the safe spots in the backfield and moving into position. One thing I particularly enjoy here is just that there are more tiles capable of supporting production, so the player can build as they go. The FastAI was supposed to be awarded factories as part of their bonus units, but I just don't see them place very often. I think it would change the bombing dynamic a fair bit if the FastAI was consistently trying to build factories on any tile that could support one. But usually what I see is that once a factory is destroyed, they don't really replace them. Why the Bomber SBR becomes very OP to me in the mid game, once there are many Bombers grouped together, all focusing on a single target. Even losing a bunch of Bomber TUV to Flak, if the computer isn't going to rebuild those factories, to me that would be a reasonably efficient use of the bombers for the cost. Just since they can bomb the FastAI off the board or trap them in awkward positions that way, and it's harder for them to coordinate counter attacks at M3.
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@black_elk I both CARE and APPRECIATE your comments mate.
But sadly I think was not able to understand some of the first half of your comments.
To help here please tell me what you are referring to when you stated “that’s a fair criticism you struggled with …”
We’ve got a few threads going on in parallel so I’m just not making the connection - besides that I’ve been “criticizing” a bunch now lol
In your comments I’m a tad lost by your reference to the “fast ai”. What does the selection of the fast/easy vs hard/slow have anything to do with anything here?
You said you “took over a team”. What team ? Are you referring to the selecting the “full team” as on playing Italy, Germany and Japan together versus just one nation ?
Miraculously I DO understand your statement : “what theDog had in mind was more like taking control of a single Nation and then having the FastAI teammates almost like an albatross hanging around the neck. Or almost as a randomizer, like have an unreliable teammate basically hehe.”
But I also do not. It sounds like you are claiming that TheDog’s (one of the authors of this game) intent was for us to play as only one “team” such as Germany, while letting the stupider heuristics (Fast AI) run Italy and Japan.
So what ?
Why is this even something to discuss ? How does it fit into the discussion ?
You stated: “ Sometimes I feel like the battle windows and rolling dice are quite distracting, and often I wish I could just minimize all that out of view to survey the map in a particular area without the camera jumping around to show me what the FastAI is trying to do. I don't mind the pop-up battle screen when I have to give actual input, like a decision to scramble”
And I couldn’t agree more !!! Are there any plans or options to remove this jumping around mechanic ?
Finally you stated, “ I also really enjoy that idea of building out bases and production on the front lines! Like getting a smaller force into position and then having to hang on by the finger nails. It's probably coming from the old Classic strats from when I first learned how to play Allies, like double factories for India and China, or the factory in South Africa vs like all-in on Carrier builds. “
WE CAN MAKE DOUBLE FACTORIES ???? Where? WHat game?
Please correct me if wrong, but I feel the theme of your entire post was about learning to feel how the game plays… ie the intuition for the game mechanics.
And that is basically a mirror of what I’m experiencing right now as I “get to know and get a feel for the game mechanics.”
I’ve now done hundreds of permutations on simple attacks and defenses to get to know what the units are good/bad at.
And I am VERY HAPPY to report that after going through a steep learning curve, and direct access to the actual developers of this game (which is NOT practical for the public at large) I am finally feeling comfortable with it and now able to move on to game balance and user manual creation.
For the past year I was both TOTALLY LOST BY THIS BADLY BROKEN GAME and TOTALLY IN AWE BY THIS WONDERFUL GAME THAT IS A WORK OF GENIUS!!!
I was getting frustrated by my not being able to readily understand and play it. It was NOT Axis and Allies and, I feel this now more than ever, it seems to me this game should be a stand alone thing and in no way related to TripleA.
The game def had issues. Always crashing. Often freezing. And much more.
But now most of that has been fixed!
And I sort of knew all along that the issues were primarily my lack of knowledge for this game complicated by the fact that I did not know any other game that was similar - and again I see it used TripleA as the game engine, but I feel it has almost no connection to it.
So again I thank all of you for being such active members of this forum.
I now have played three actual non modded GCD games and I’m happy to report that each game felt balanced and fun and challenging !!!
So I’m onto the user manual. But I will take my time for that one.
Cheers
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SHUT THE FRONT DOOR !!!
What the heck is this? Turn 8 or so and Japan has taken the border tiles with India then ALL OF A SUDDEN these Chinese popped up there!!!!
And the game log does not even show any evidence of these units being placed.
Can anyone explain this?
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@johnnycat not sure haven't seen anything like that occur of late. Unless they were hiding somewhere in the backfield and moved from a factory spot? Might be a bug
Here's another game with USA showing the Factories thing, scaling up the money. I basically just bought a couple Medium Factories every round and placed them in the territories worth 7 PUs.
As USA my plan was to cross the top of the board and invade Japan directly. Right now I think it's too easy to pull this off, since Kyushu is sort of an Achille's heel for Japan. It would be less impactful for USA to just slam into them if that TT was only a Small Factory like the one up on Hokkaido. Like you can see if I had been forced to try and take Tokyo in order to claim a major factory from Japan, then they'd have had a counter attack option. Also it would make the conscript infantry units more of a factor to protect the main island group with tiles that share a border overland.
On the Atlantic side I wanted to push north towards Iceland and Scandinavia, but it feels like putting USA out of position to do that when France is much easier to reach. Here I just took Brittany to give the Germans headaches. I think having Iceland as something like a Medium Factory might give the USA more of stake up north and encourage the fleet to head up that way before just making a B Line to France. Right now you can basically push against N. Africa and France from the same position with the transports but that might pull them more into two groups, like one for France and the North Atlantic and another route more North Africa Med.
2024-8-1-1941-Global-Command-Decision USA round 6 rematch x2.tsvg
ps. Oh sorry didn't see that other post above. Yeah basically you got the gist of what I was aiming at. Like my experience as a player, since most of the unit stuff and the design of the scenario was stuff TheDog set up. While I was drawing a map he cooked up the xml for the game and set the stage as it were, so most of the time I'm looking at it from the players POV as like a perpetual newb trying to get my head around how it all stiches together. Oh also so for the FastAI or HardAI thing. Currently when you launch the game HardAI will be the default, but FastAI is the one I've been playing against. Controlling a single nation basically and letting the FastAI control all the other nations. So as Axis I'd just play as Germany, or else Italy, or Japan, rather than all 3. Assigning whoever I wasn't playing to the FastAI. My sense of the difference is that the FastAI prioritizes destroying enemy TUV, whereas HardAI prioritizes conserving it's own TUV. So basically FastAI is more reckless and tends to move it's units around in more chaotic ways, which to me feel somewhat more challenging. It's erratic but unpredictable, and sometimes the FastAI stumbles into a better play than the more cautious HardAI would. The HardAI also takes a lot longer to calc its turns on my computer, so the game would just kinda drag for me playing that way as a Solo (one nation everyone else HardAI.) I think the game would probably function fine for a PvP game, except that the inherent swingy-ness of the combats might be a little frustrating. In the solo for a surprise loss I just sorta take it on the chin, like well the FastAI must have beat me to the punch. I can just imagine 2 players head to head though, each feeling like they got robbed by the dice gods all the time, just because there is so much more variability built into the combats.
Oh also, for that game, since I was stacking units pretty hard in Brittany I think the overflow line should maybe start a bit further to the left of the territory. It was a little tricky to see some of the units especially when the Brits joined the party just cause the line was cutting back across them.
An interesting idea for Japan's production might be to locate a Medium or Heavy Factory 1 tile off the coast in the Manchuria area. So like Jehol, Harbin, or Manchuria TTs, if the value of one of those was increased. Then Japan could have that as a fallback at least as a spot to build fighters and such, if they're overtaken on the water.
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Without a save game, it is very difficult to explain what happened. If you have it, please post it. If not, the next time you see something like this, please save the game, and post it.
Cheers...
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@wc_sumpton said in
1941 Global Command Decision - Official Thread:please save the game, and post it.
yep save games are the way to go
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@johnnycat said
So I’m onto the user manual. But I will take my time for that one.Thanks for volunteering to do a manual.
My original documents are located here
triplea\downloadedMaps\1941_global_command_decision\map\doc\images\OriginalsOn a windows PC here (just paste the link below into Windows Explorer)
C:\Users\%USERNAME%\triplea\downloadedMaps\1941_global_command_decision\map\doc\images\OriginalsThe files are in Open Document format, I use Libre Office, its free and very similar to Microsoft Office.
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/There will be a September release, with cosmetic changes, minor game play changes and a new page for Politics in the manual.
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@thedog ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!! I recently switched all my open office stuff to libre office
And I just completed a 150 page manual for another game using Libre.
Thanks for the links !!!
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Here is the game where German 8 - all of a sudden a bunch of Chinese units populated India.
This is very weird.CHINESE POPPED UP IN INDIA G8.tsvg
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@wc_sumpton I just posted the game save that shows all these random Chinese units popping into India...
Oh and THEY ARE NOT REALLY THERE - of course. Its just some sort of graphics bug
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@johnnycat
No they are there, fleeing from your Imperial Japanese advance. So all good..
Turn 5 - fleeing
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Turn 6 - Scattering
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Right on. That makes a bit more sense then, especially since China moves last in the turn order sequence. If they got a move in when the player wasn't looking, it could easily seem like they just appeared randomly. Although not a bug, it's potentially still a source of confusion for the newer player, esp. if one is used to China rules in v3 or Global, where the Chinese can only operate in specific territories. I'm not sure if the open/closed borders concept was introduced into TripleA specifically to accommodate the way China and Pro-Side Neutrals work in G40, but seems likely.
@johnnycat I was referring to the situation in Classic Axis and Allies, where the UK player would purchase an Industrial Complex in India and the USA player would then purchase a second Factory in Sinkiang (team Allies would then use the 'double factory' buy in Mainland Asia as a way to Kill or Contain Japan) for a Kill Japan First game. I was not referring to GCD 1941 there, but rather a standard opening buy from Allies in the A&A game from 1984. Alternative openers might be the British player buying an Industrial Complex in South Africa, or a Carrier build where the USA flies in support in that game.
I worry that I'm not really the best person to describe the nuts and bolts on some of this stuff for the GCD. I don't want to confuse anyone, or speak for TheDog in terms of the design intention. A lot of times I will be critical of the way a particular unit works here or suggest an alternative approach, but I don't want my opinions on how a given thing might work to be conflated with the explanation of how it's currently set up. I also have pretty hardcore dyslexia too when typing, so there's that as well hehe. I was trying to respond to your Qs regarding bombers and factories by highlighting where the AI is deficient, since it just can't really do the sort of stuff to us, that we can do to them. It's relevant to the extent that the game is framed as a single player experience rather than a PvP one. Meaning that you're supposed to play it basically vs the computer. This came up very early on when deciding how the challenge for the single player should be approached, with the TheDog deciding on set bonuses awarded to the computer when they are being played by the AI. I think there are different ways to frame the bonuses if the idea is to play as the entire team vs the computer, rather than a single nation vs computer, both of which will be different than a PvP where two players go head to head, each controlling the entire team/side, Axis or Allies. Right now that last option seems the most fraught, since a lot of the design thus far is trying to push the behavior of the FastAI. For example there are hidden capitals and things like that are used to 'persuade' the computer player to adopt certain play patterns on the first turn, or in the midgame, where they are propped up with bonuses. In the same way, when the FastAI is controlling a teammate nation, those bonuses will stabilize the fronts a bit so that it's not a blowout when the AI is fighting itself (other computer players) rather than the lone human.
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@black_elk much appreciated content. Thx
But back to teleporting Chinese troops circa 1944: why are there a bunch of Chinese in India ?
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@johnnycat
Because they are moving away from your advances and the AI decided to move them to from N. Burma to Bengal (4 purple conscript and Artillery) on Turn 5 image and then turn 6 they scattered.Turn 6 image shows some of the history of what happened, they did not teleport there, you just did not notice their retreat/moves to that point.
As seen here in the post above.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/3326/1941-global-command-decision-official-thread/831 -
@thedog Thanks.
Learning this game reminds of learning golf. Each (turn of the game)/(swing of the club) has me considering a couple dozen things at once, so Im not surprised that i did not notice them earlier and really felt like they just materialized. lol
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VARIOUS UNIT and PLACEMENT Questions and Observations.
I'd be most grateful if any of you have any information you can give me regarding these things. I just want to know intentions and whatever else you know...
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noticed that Bunkers and Base-Camps cannot be placed in a marsh tile. Are there any other placement restrictions and/or any docs/rules that specify these sorts of things?
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German "Early Fighter" What is this unit for and when would it come into play? I have not yet seen it actually offered in play and only notice it when in edit mode.
RELATED NOTE: Most of the nations have units like this - units that I ONLY see in Edit Mode placement.
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German "Inf-Conscript". What is this unit for and when would it come into play???
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Why are Oil-Fields offered as units that can be placed in Edit Mode? The TripleA "maps" Iron War and Iron War Europe are extremely fun to play and the only TipleA games that I am aware of that factor in Fuel - and they do so in a very significant manner as I recall many times having everything correct, only to find that I don't have enough fuel to execute my plan, lol...
But I NEVER have found fuel limitation in this GCD game. Are these units solely for PUs per turn?
- I've never understood the movement rules fully so I am hoping that solving this case will help.
Consider a selection of all types of units in the Upper Volta tile in Africa. I own the Ivory Coast tile and I want to invade/capture Sierra Leone and Liberia.
I cannot do this with an armored infantry unit. But I CAN do this with an armor unit. Why is this the case?
THANK YOU !!!
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MORE MOVEMENT MYSTERIES
I heard the term "blitz" and I see "transport costs" but I don't yet understand any of it.
Here is what I observed:
A. If I move a tank from Upper Volta to Lagos S. Nigeria and then try to move an inf - the inf cannot make it.
If I click on the tank to move it, but then click on the inf, they can then be moved together to the destination.
So where and what are all the facts regarding this? I notice that the halftracks CANNOT transport any other unit. Is that correct?
THX Mates - all your input now will result in a great user manual later.
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@johnnycat
#1 Not sure, there is no quick answer#2 & #3 From the German start panel When German homeland is invaded it can buy Inf-Conscript and gets free obsolete Armor-Lgt & Fighter-Early
#4 Oil-Fields are offered as a unit, because to TripleA they are a unit. The can be captured and give PU to their owner. I have a feature request in on GitHub to allow the option to not show this type of unit. 1941 GCD is designed so the AI understands most of what the player see/plays/aims for and as Fuel is a Resource that TripleA does not understand it is not used. Yes Oil-Fields are for PUs per turn.
#5 Erm, ah, oh, Im off to bed
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BOMBER FIGHTER MYSTERIES 36
Q1. If a drop some Bombers onto some unsuspecting schmuck out in the open, I can often destroy or sig damage the units.
Same with using Tac-Bombers.
What are the dice rolls here and should the Bomber do better than the Tac-Bomber?
Q2. I want to attack a tile that has a Bunker x2 and some units.
Observation: Often when I do the battle calc and get 78.2 percent, but then throw in 4 Bomber that were lounging around the area, I notice something peculiar: The battle calc does not change. I notice this often actually.
In any case, the point of my question here is when should I have the air units ATTACK and when/where should they Bomb/Escort.
I am seeking all the information I can get on this Escort/Bomb and Attack options. I still do not have any feel for what to do and usually just have then attack. Bombing seems like such a waste of resources in this game with the one exception being that if you have at least 8 Bombers you might could destroy a heavy factory. That's not guaranteed and, in case case, a stack of that many bombers would seem to be rare, right?
Do the Tac-Bomber also fly as escort?
I have this hunch that I should sprinkle my factories with cheap fighters because, in my hunch, this would help defend against bombers from destroying my factories. But do they? How would I know?
Similarly I have this hunch that I should send figures along with my bombers - but ofc this is not practical as fighters have such poor range. In any case, how would I even know that my fighters are helping?
BTW, I'm trying to address this manual thing in a breadth-first approach so any and all information you guys have would be appropriate. Thanks again.
