Total World War: December 1941 (BETA) 2.8.0.5

[General_Zod]

@hepps I like the concept of including the French fleets in a historically accurate manor. However, I wonder if it's still logical for allies to get to scuttle the Toulon fleet at normal rate if at all, assuming the axis has ships in Toulon waters as well.

Perhaps another condition would be prudent. Like no axis surface vessels in Toulon waters for the scuttle option to be given to allies. In addition to the liberation conditions.

An alternate idea for ya. Have you considered making the Toulon fleet SBR bombable, then allies can go in and target the ships they want to scuttle anytime.

Edit: Or make them SBR bombable once the liberation(s) takes place (and no axis cruiser/bb/acc present) . Rather than the pay to scuttle prompts. Also once allies meet the condition, the fleet is allowed to be captured by axis marines or vessels on a 1:1 basis ideally. This would prompt a race.

[Shonn]

The 'problem' of the man is that the Axis can easily keep a ship there though because Vichy is de facto producing German troops under all terms.
Unless the requirement is to have X PUs kept in Vichy or that Sea-Zone to represent German forces ready to intervene (Even if Vichy produced they're not used elsewhere to be ready to grab ships)

[General_Zod]

@shonn Or force axis to keep some # of marines in Toulon ready to seize those French vessels. One marine per vessel.

Haha, can even make the marines board the vessels to seize them. Then once they are captured by axis, those vessels lose ability to load units or be SBR bombable, etc.. Making them normal vessels.
(just might not be able to create the condition of which ship(s) is boarded, however I might have a solution that does not use a traditional condition)

[Schulz]

Is this map playable without USA, China and Japan?

[wirkey]

@schulz guess so, but it probably won't be much fun and pretty sure it won't be balanced at all

[Hepps]

@general_zod The Vichy fleet can be attacked at any time by the Allies. So if the Allies decide they want to try to take out the fleet prior to liberating North Africa (why they would want to is beyond me) they are free to do so... just as they are free to attempt to sink the Dakar fleet if they face the prospect of not being able to liberate West Africa.

My goal here is to try and keep it simple. If you take a North African territory... the Exiled Allies will be prompted to sink the Vichy fleet. I chose this option because to me the Vichy Commanders who scuttled the fleet were in a sense Free French when they made the decision to sink their own vessels and defy German possession. Creating the costs for this is a hypothetical mechanism that helps to balance the game since truthfully if you are taking North Africa then penalizing the EA in the eve of taking possession of territories where they can create new production facilities is likely a good thing.

Creating all kinds of other mechanisms doesn't really seem necessary. The act of Operation Lila works perfectly fine as an abstracted event that is embodied in Germany gaining any vessels that fail to be scuttled.

Having other Axis naval units in the same SZ is a non-issue for me because it doesn't mean they are necessarily in the same Harbour, since the SZ encompasses the entire southern coast of France. It doesn't mean any Axis units sharing the SZ are moored right next to the Vichy vessels interned at Toulon.

[wirkey]

got a new error for you! Although I would think it's the engine.

Territory A and B are adjacent to each other, occupied by the same side. A has AF and Fighters. A and B are both attacked. A scrambles planes into B. A gets conquered, while B remains. Now the game crashes, no message, no save game.
0_1534501684093_scramble error.tsvg

[Gully]

I always wondered what happens if one does that, but I was too lazy to try. It's probably not a TWW thing.

I guess the most reasonable thing is, just keep the fighters in B, even if there is no airfield there.

[wirkey]

@gully yeah, that's what it should be. The problem is the game crashes instantly after combats. No autosave, no chance to save, no error message. Can be really painful if you have a game and didn't save for some time.

[redrum]

@Hepps Love the overall direction for the Vichy fleets and protectorates. My only comment is that you might want to consider avoiding having BBs in the fleets as gaining a BB is a pretty huge swing. Just don't want too much randomness that can really swing the game based on a couple rolls.

[Hepps]

@redrum I hear what you are saying. But I have been mulling the math over in my mind.

Let's assume for examples sake that any attempt at liberating North Africa happens after the Exiled Allies have saved enough PU to ensure they are rolling for ALL the Vichy fleet. (Since that only makes sense if you are playing the Allies)

With a roll at 10/12 for each vessel... that means you have an 83% chance of sinking all of them. Now I am no mathematician... but my calculations that means on average... (massive luck swings excluded, just working on average results)... that 17% of the ships would survive... or 1.19 units. This means that on average even if the BB survived... it would be the only unit to do so. Now while gaining a BB would be a big event... the actual chance of the surviving unit being the BB is 14% (1 of 7).

Now, given that we are assuming the Allies are taking one of the Protectorates in force... and have diverted the necessary resources to Gibraltar to pursue an offensive. this means even if the surviving unit is the BB... In all likelihood this unit is not going to change the entire course of the Med. but rather buy Germany and Italy some more time to try and mount a defense.

The other thing to consider is that if the Allies have made an African push... then in all likelihood the BB and DD have already been liberated off West Africa. So the Axis could probably use a little luck at this point.

[redrum]

@hepps So I think your math is a bit funky

So let's look at it this way with the main assumption that exiled allies can roll for all 7 (otherwise I think it gets pretty ugly fast for the Allies).

Points

• The BB will survive 1 of 6 games (10/12 roll)
• When the BB survives we want to consider how many other units on average survive with it: 0 - 33%, 1 - 40%, 2- 20%, 3 - 5%, rest are <1%

So when the BB survives (1 of 6 games), ~67% of the time it'll survive with at least 1 other naval unit and ~27% with at least 2 other naval units. Those odds aren't that rare and if you survive with a BB + 1 or more other naval unit and then have 1-2 fighters in Vichy France that is a pretty legitimate naval presence in the Med.

[redrum]

Looking over the changes as a whole from a balance stand point, it probably favors Allies a bit.

Most likely the best strategy would be to primarily use the US to send a fleet to capture West Africa ASAP (probably around turn 3) and just having the UK in Africa send a few units to contain the other German units and create a pincer. This allows the Allies to pick up all the Vichy production in West Africa, the free land units, and the Vichy Dakar navy and really only changes that the US will need to build a bit more of a fleet in the Atlantic (so less Pacific pressure). After West Africa is secured, I'd probably just ignore North Africa as I don't want to take a gamble that the Vichy Fleet at Toulon survives or have to pay to try and sink them. So the UK would essentially play almost the same way they tend to play today and focus on Egypt and then the US can shift focus to the Pacific.

[Shonn]

I pointed that out already - saying that either Germany gets offensive units there too to require attention or the sector can be mopped up anytime by Allies.
Germany really lacks the means to invest in the sector unless they really want to pay a hefty cost elsewhere.
So as it is now it's pratically a 1 turn affair for USA to go to Azores, and by turn2 or turn3 they land in West Afrika, get the Vichy Dakar fleet as Allied (hefty bonus) and if the minor allies of UK want can skip the scrapping as they neglect the mediterranean alltogether and UK keeps pinning Cairo.

What Red said it's even worse though, Vichy loses flexibility due to the loss of N.Afrika that mandates 1 resource instead of a choice, and ultimately it's a neat Allied gain. Not minor - after I thought on his words.

That in a map that from my perspective is already heavily swinging to Allied favor.

[redrum]

@shonn So the Axis do get a few benefits from how the proposed changes currently sit which I don't think quite balance out the Allied benefits but is the reason I feel it isn't a huge swing.

Axis Benefits

• Vichy starts with -2 PU but gets free material (slightly less flexibility but definitely more value as France needs materials)
• Vichy fleet at Toulon provides protection against allied landings in South France and Northern Italy
• Vichy fleet at Toulon trigger discourages the Allies from attacking North Africa so Axis shouldn't need to worry about defending it as much

[Shonn]

Allies will get more PUs (Slightly) from West Afrika - as it is beefed up.
Allies gain 1 BB and 1 DD for free once West Afrika is freed plus X infantries around that zone, which by far will outweight any losses they suffer against 3 INFs (Can't see Germany easily affording planes there)

Vichy fleets defends there, certainly - but Allies can simply do, as you pointed out - their regular Norway / North France tantrum there and simply disregard that change.

[Hepps]

Ok so after some further consideration and some valuable input from youz people, I have changed and adapted my vision for Africa and the Vichy Regime.

These are not minor changes to the vision but represent a dramatic departure from the original design. Many of the components of the preceding design remain but have been altered or changed.

1. All the established PU changes remain the same... Morocco +1 PU (2 total), Tunisia +1 PU (2 total), West Africa +1 PU (2 total), Nigeria +1 PU (2 total)

2. The game starting German Protectorates are reduced to Morocco and Algeria. As long as both Protectorates remain, Germany will receive a free Material in Vichy France every turn.

3. If either Protectorate is liberated by an Allied power the following will happen...

A) The free Materials will be lost for the remainder of the game.

B ) All Vichy territories on the Mediterranean (Vichy France, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Southwestern Algeria, Southern Algeria) that remain under Axis control will become German Occupation Zones. All PU generated in these territories will be collected by Germany.

D) All Production Facilities excluding Barracks will become German.

E) Germany will now be prompted to pay 1 PU per vessel to attempt to prevent the scuttling of the Vichy fleet at Toulon. Germany will have a 2/12 chance for each PU invested to stop the scuttle attempt. Surviving units join the Kriegsmarine.

I think these adaptations will make it a new and challenging prospect for both sides.

[Hepps]

1. Sub and Destroyer mechanics all done.

2. Vichy fleet all created.

Now I just need the conditions and triggers to make it all work.

If anyone wants to help with this... I'd be more than willing to accept help. As conditions and trigger are not my forte.

[General_Zod]

@hepps I can help you out in exchange for some future beautification favors on my project.

[prastle]

@general_zod OOH the trade wars start