Iron War - Official Thread
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After playing it through, the rally points might not be the best thing for the AI. Japan has built a ton of infantry on islands, so they now have a bunch of tuv that is useless.
Germany seems like they can't expand into USSR enough. Once they get like 4 territories in, they stopped sending new units that way. Probably general AI issue, but thought useful to let you know. I don't think it was the fuel limiting them either.
Italy has built like 20 AA guns. That seems excessive. Doesn't look like anyone else did that though.
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It seems to me that territories like Shanghai, Peking, Jehol, Ryojun, and Canton should be original owner China. I am not sure on the exact geography, but probably also Hsinking, Tsitsihar, and Hailar?
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Is there any way preventing national sounds overlapping?
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@Schulz I always forget that some maps have sounds. First thing i do is turn them all off!
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Because of they are bad sounds or just distract from game?
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@Schulz Just cause i usually don't want others to have to listen to them. I find it is a good game to play while doing something else, and no sound is nice for that.
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I've been trying to make new unit images for this game but they never look quite right... How does one do it? -
Been playing this one again for the past couple nights.
I tried it with Economic Victory instead of the VC win a few times, which felt a bit more satisfying for solo play since you can get in some more rounds that way before the hammer falls. I did notice though that its tied to PUs at the end of the round rather than Production totals. I think I hit 650 in Cash before actually conquering that much land. Probably from saving a purchase or something? In any case, game still plays pretty enjoyably as Axis. Playing as Allies is somewhat simpler since the German AI doesn't go as big as they might. I think mass transports buys for team Axis is the most solid. Basically spending everything on transports in the first round for max pressure and flexibility during round 2. Something sort of like this for a set up...
2021-4-3-Iron-War Axis Transports G2.tsvgBut of course the machine would never go that heavy amphib early on if the sides were switched. Allies do buy some transports, but not quite enough to get the job done, so I notice they stack islands as well.
Not sure on the audio stuff, I also saw the anthems playing simultaneously, as it kind of fades from on turn to the other. Probably would be cleaner if the national music cut at the end of the turn, especially for the blocks that have small nations that make their turns pretty quickly.
Anyhow, still a fun map. Hope you all have been well during the plague times
best Elk -
Just doing another run, this time as Germany solo with everyone else controlled by the hard AI.
I think the strongest play from Germany is to slam into Russia, either pressing the Leningrad pocket via amphib or darting to Stalingrad with mech, then redirect West after the Russians are handled. The runner up would be doing it in the reverse order, with Sea Lion first to control the western approach by sea, then redirect East to focus entirely on Russia before they gain the upper hand. But just for kicks, and since it was a solo, we opted for a third way: launch an expeditionary force to mess with the minors! haha
Takes probably 4 or 5 transports to have much impact against any of the other Allies, and a fair amount of fuel just to move the transports, but its pretty entertaining. Fuel management I think is the most important thing to pulling it off, without just handing the game to the Soviets on a silver platter lol. I tried to build up the synth stockpile early on with a dozen or so additional green barrels to keep from burning out, since the first few rounds will tap all the reserves for sure.
After the North Sea Zone I think the Freetown Sea Zone is maybe the strongest for Axis to occupy with a transport fleet.
Takes a few turns to set up, but from that position Axis can threaten 6 Allied Factories and a couple Rally Points from a single sea zone. Hard for the Machine to defend all of them, so whichever ends up the weakest, Germany can just sweep them and then use production to set up a little colony to mess with Team Allies heheh.
In this one we sent 5 transports and the Battleship out to the South Atlantic and used the rest to shuck units towards the Soviets since we knew they'd be fierce. G had just enough juice to crash the party in Stalingrad, but then had to strafe back home to safety in East Prussia. Our AI Axis buddies are bit unreliable, so we've been planning to go it alone for the most part. Finland is probably toast without some reinforcements at the last possible minute. We'll probably have to save them, or maybe not lol. But anyhow you can see the lanes down there off the coast of West Africa in the save below... Basically gives G the choice to disrupt South America or Africa, whichever is the more weakly defended. Here I think South America looks like the juicier prize, so probably will go that way to stomp! But its fun for a change of pace on this map.
I noticed that AI Japan did purchase a new factory in Shanghai, so that's good to see. Probably most AI nations have more production than cash on hand so they don't really buy new factories, but I like how the rally points open up more possibilities and make some regions of the map and minor powers viable even if their main factory gets smoked hehe
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Picked it up tonight where I left off, on the eve of invasion South America hehe.
Hard AI Allies have put up pretty good fight so far. Didn't want to overcommit, so we sacked a few transports to get the ball rolling, but held the main fleet back on Freetown Sea Zone. We but the shock on the Dutch and Brazil. But French Colonies have since been reinforced with mass air from the US/UK. We kept the focus on that South American front with a pair of factories to build up on the ground. Had to dip back to the North Atlantic for a few rounds to manage as US press vs Normandy, but then wheeled back down. Disrupting West Africa seemed to give Il Duce a leg up, and AI Italy started to make an impact. We saved the Finns, but couldn't hold the line in the Middle East. Just to far afield for Solo G, what with all the antics in Suriname and such lol.
Saw Japan purchase a second factory in Chunking. So far I think the only power that has entered the factory race is Japan. Though the AI Soviets and Brit India have been making pretty good use of the Mid East rally points once they swept in. Japan is finally putting the heat on in the Far East though. Russia has been predictably beast mode the whole time, but I think we got a shot here to finally clean their clock at Kuybyshev on the Blitz and clinch it heheh
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G10.tsvg
Pretty entertaining
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G10 non com.tsvg
Boom! lol
Kept on after Economic Victory to see how long it would take to set up Invasion USA. We got a toehold on the US mainland in the 15th round, but they're still pretty deep with the tanks and fighters and such. Everywhere else AI Allies are now in full collapse mode, as we went round robin with G's pocket fleet from Gabon to South Africa. Axis cut Russia in half with some help from AI Italy and Japan stepping up to close our gaps. Japan made one more factory purchases at some point adding another in Yakut. They seemed to be the only nation much interested in expanding production, but it did seem to help their charge across China to take Siberia. I think the rally points do help keep the AI Allies afloat despite hardAI limitations for production type purchases. From the players perspective I felt like the Rally points encouraged my purchasing of more Tanks since they can only produce a single unit. So that's kind of cool. A couple medium tanks out of Morocco and West Africa early on were helpful to shore up our transport capacity while on the move.
I thought for sure HardAI USA was going to drive us back from South America when they started started purchasing transports, but they sent them towards West Africa as fleet fodder instead of doing the shuck shuck with ground to crush our foothold in Dutch Guiana. After we regrouped they then let us smoke their main Atlantic fleet off the Gulf Coast, which cleared the way to an easy Aixs shuck into Florida... certain doom hehe.
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G16.tsvg
Might take a crack at an Allied solo again if the mood strikes, but had fun doing a Germany run
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Here's an idea from watching how the AI plays. The set up is the same as default, except that any territory that has a Victory City, A starting Factory, or which controls a strait now has a Rally Point on it.
For the starting Factory territories the rally point does not really add any additional production capacity for the initial controlling power, and only really comes into play when those spots trade hands. Elsewhere it just makes sure that every VC and Canal territory has a rally point on it. So Denmark Gibraltar, Singapore, Oslo etc. The idea being that since the HardAI seems to target Rally Points much more effectively than factories, this might make for more challenging PVE experience, without really changing the PVP aspect too much.
I agree that the Rally points are a little hard to make out. Probably because some unit flag icons have a gold trim around the base already, and other don't? Or maybe if the Flags were slightly larger?
In any case, I think the HardAI would likely do a lot better with these Rally Points as targets. It seems to defend and contest Rally Point territories more readily, probably because they are capturable. Anyhow, given how it played vanilla, thought this way the machine might have a better shot guarding their core production zones and controlling the sea lanes..
Iron-War Rally points on Factories.tsvg
Bought to give it a try in a solo, just to see how it works.
Here it is after 9 rounds in a USA solo, everyone else to HardAI...
I was particularly pleased with how Germany managed the Eastern front and the Battle of the Atlantic. Note especially the counter play vs Stalingrad in early rounds. I think having the Rally points on the Russian factories pulls the center of gravity there a bit, since G charged much harder than I remember.
As USA we focused on the Pacific to pretty good results. We bypassed Truk to reclaim Philippines and use that as the base of OPs for the Pacific. After breaking the IJN, China stepped up to crack Manchuria, so the Pacific is well in hand. But over on the European with less investment there's been some good back and forth. Atlantic plan was for the Spanish landing pad ala Classic, but it failed hard when Italy clapped back. A slog over Gibraltar and Spain ensued, with USA trading their fleet to Destroy Italy's. Then Germany broked the Royal Navy with subs and advanced as far as the waters of Halifax before being turned back. They won the battle of the Atlantic for the convoys for a couple rounds for sure. USA just started to push back on Fortress Europe holding with a pocket fleet in the Western Med. Pacific is a mop job, but the Axis a driving pretty hard into Russia now. I think ensuring Denmark on G1 with the Rally Point helped them to get the ball rolling. They still haven't tried to conquer Benelux though, even after 9 rounds lol. Maybe we need a Market Garden Rally point?
Iron-War Rally points on Factories USA solo US9.tsvg
Anyhow, pretty entertaining I thought. I like the new cheaper steel cost for the Transports since the older versions and the Rally Point unit concept. They make the USA feel more viable going both directions at once, which makes the game a bit more exciting. Clearly team Allies did a lot better on one side of the board than the other in this game, but I think it feels about right. In a game with a Pacific focus from USA solo, G should probably be right about here by this time in the game. Playing out not too unlike the actual war.
Few more rounds in and AI Germany is still running the board on AI Russia. AI China is a beast though hehe. With Thailand under wraps, I think the cleanest kill is probably let Japan whither while we strike to the Mid East before Germany gets too monster. Or Maybe Somalia to clip into Italy some more for revenge for the Spanish fiasco?
Iron-War Rally points on Factories USA solo US11.tsvg
I think for team Allies Solo Soviets are still probably the more entertaining power to take for a single nation vs the AI, USA is slower to get started and less action up front. But USA solo was able to build more momentum over time with the cheaper transports and more rally options. Even with some setbacks early on in the Atlantic they recovered pretty well. AI Japan I think took a bit of a beating on J1 too, so perhaps they'd fair better in the rematch. I think I'd give this one to AI Germany just for the chip on the shoulder. Well played hard AI heheh.
Switched sides for a German solo to see how it felt with more Rally Points. So far seems to be holding pretty well.
Iron-War Rally points on Factories Germany Solo G5.tsvg
I think airbases spawning airtransports are probably more problematic for HardAI Allies, than the Sub Pens are for HardAI Axis. Main issue with the former is the fuel consumption and inefficient use since they aren't transporting. I think an Allies version of Sub Pen called "Liberty Ship Yards" which produced naval transports would probably be more engaging. Airtransports just feel too niche, and while its fun to try and make use of them as the human player the HardAI just doesn't know what to do with them, other than waste fuel using them as attack aircraft lol.
I think additional Rally Points could be used to anchor the fighting in a way the AI can comprehend. It might be fun to see a scenario set up so that the first round basically went from March 1941 to Dec 1941. Something between these too maps from the wiki...
Basically March is the latest date where its possible to imagine Axis still a factor in East Africa and the Mid East. Keeping the same turn order, the idea would be to have the first round take place during the period immediately after the Fall of France, but just before the German invasion of the Soviet Union, and closing out the round right after a Pearl Harbor opener from Japan.
Thematically, you could keep Free France centered on Equatorial Africa, with De Gualle getting a transport or whatever. French India and the pacific territories declared their support for De Gualle and so could continue to be represented by the French Colonies faction. But everywhere else declared for Petain and Vichy. For a 41 timeline those spots could be under nominal German control at the outset, but weakly defended. This to bring more of West Africa and Madagascar etc into the Mix. With more starting Territories under Axis control at the outset, I think this would help with the perennial desire by players to "Paint the Map their colors" since such TTs could either go to France or someone else, depending on who gets their first.
Another idea would be to have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral, to get a DDay Vibe going. I think if UK/USA could take direct control it would make the invasion of Europe via France much more viable. It would be cool I think to have a Rally Point in Benelux, this would give UK (or who knows maybe even KNIL hehe) a chance to claim it and juice at least a little production out of the Territory.
Here's a quick hackjob draft to to show how might look for starting territory ownership in March. I didn't tweak any rally points or forces yet. Though it would be relatively easy to use the Rally Point unit combined with a different Starting ownership of certain TTs to shift the focus on a more 1941 oriented start... This just shows what the starting territories would be for the Period.
Iron-War March 1941 draft ideas.tsvg
Essentially with much of France under nominal Vichy/German control, and the French Colonies of Indochina under Japanese control. G1 would basically be Barbarossa, J1 would be Pearl and USA entry for the total war start. 1941 theme could help to justify new rally points or starting forces positioning, but keeping the turn order and everything else the same for consistency. As a gamesave could just skip the first 2 rounds and have it begin in Early 1941 for the same tech progression. Might be fun. Start date would basically signal battle the aftermath of the Battle of Gabon, German invasion of USSR, and Japan surprise attack on the Dutch, British and US pacific possession, with round 2 G2 being Late 1941= January, which the play pattern synching up for that timeline target.
ps. Maybe something like so? Just shifted the TUV around without really removing anything lol. But you know, like with DeGaulle up there to reinforce UK, and the rest of the units shifted to Equatorial Africa. Then scooting the Germans around with some garrisons in the West and couple Afrika Korps tanks in Tunisia. Along those lines, doing the same for Soviets and Japanese etc to get a more 1941 thing going. USA could maybe get some transports to start things like that. Just for a different spin from 1940
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@black_elk said in Iron War - Official Thread:
have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral
"...have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral..."
Wow this is an Excellent idea ! Solves the factory turning French problem. I know this is for "Iron War", but I'm gonna use it for G 40. A problem I've never found a sufficient answer for.
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@beelee for sure!
I think that could be an nice one for a few spots esp on maps that could support multiple timelines/starts. Or like where maybe the capital territory has original ownership but other places are true neutral depending on the year or the theme. Some Soviet or Japanese/Dutch starting territories might work the same way depending on who has initial control for whatever date, but some spots stand out as always being more fun that way. Like Normandy I think, even if France remains French. Or for like a Vichy or Northern Italy thing, if Allies conquer but then Germany mounts a counter offensive. Rally Points are a fun unit concept for that, since you don't have the long delay on production rebuilding. But they can only drop 1 hitpoint. Makes me want to buy tanks and ships out of them. Fun counterplay I'd think in Western Europe doing it up to the nines that way haha.
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Just ruminating again on possible ways to improve map from an SP perspective.
To elaborate more on the whole "paint the map through conquest" appeal. I think this exists in A&A on the computer for sure ever since the Hasbro disk, or with RiskII, Total War and pretty much every map game. On a physical board its less pronounced because ownership is indicated by the roundels, but digitally I think many enjoy the whole TT changes color vibe. In AA50, G40, this map, and other games that use starting ownership for the start date to determine original ownership of the TTs, you kind of lose out on the Classic/Revised style appeal of painting the map with the big dogs. So comparing like AA50 1942, to 1942 sec Edition in the formerly British territories controlled by Japan in the 1942 start those will revert to Britain when liberated. So spots like the Dutch East Indies going back to Britain or same deal with Soviet Territories that begin under German control. Whereas in Classic/Revised/1942.2 etc, those spots can be claimed by say USA instead.
It would be cool to see an original TripleA map with more than 1 start date, where the active front territories that change hands from scenario to scenario are original ownership true neutral in some cases, to support ownership by other factions if liberated. I also just still like the idea of WW2 map that's geared more towards what the AI can achieve currently, as opposed to waiting on the HardAI to improve. Like what the AI actually does with what it's given, so that's still in the back of my head.
But anyway, the tricky thing about a 1940 start date for way the original ownership/liberation default works, is that its set before the main Axis expansion. So less of the map is under original ownership Axis at the outset. Using the default approach I think a big part of why a 1941/42 setting is more fun, is because more TTs can be conquered and then used for production by the Allied factions like the US or Britain. A map where multiple TTs are og true neutral to build a map for multiple dates would be killer.
Another thought for this one specifically is some way to make Britain and the British Colonies factions able to stand up to a likely Axis double threat from both Italy and Japan as they converge around East Africa.
What if Egypt, Ango-Egypt Sudan and all the territories in the European and Mediterranean theater were controlled by Britain rather British Colonies?
Or then what if Canada was under British-Colonies control rather than Britain's control?
During WW2 Labrador and Newfoundland would be still have been under Britain's direct control, and maybe could have rally points to justify their distinct political status, whereas the rest of the Dominion of Canada could join the British Colonies Faction. This would put them both roughly on the same production footing and kinda fits thematically for the period.
Basically you have the British administering in Europe and North Africa, then British Colonies in Canada and the rest of the Empire in the Atlantic and West Africa as its own faction. This could allow the other Dominions or India to pick up a few TTs? Depending on how you wanted to distribute the Middle East or East Africa or the Pacific stuff. Iceland and Egypt were already occupied by the British by 1941, so that would work as well. The British counter offensive vs Graziani could have them already in Tobruk, with the idea that Germany can invade from Tunisia and the Western Med, to go after spots like Greece/Crete/El Alemain etc on G1. So round 1 is like sand and sea North Africa vibe, whereas round 2 is like full on Torch set up.
Giving Britain another convoy zone somewhere in the Atlantic along with Egypt would basically offset Canada going to British-Colonies. Something sort of like this maybe for starting ownership? Just a quicky to play with the Canada idea... I think with a tweak to the starting forces distribution, it could be done it a way that has Britain more involved in the Eastern Med, whereas the Atlantic crossing from Canada and the stuff going on Sub Saharan Africa has more of its own vibe for the war effort.
Iron-War March 1941 draft ideas Britain Canada.tsvg
Here's another option, where everything in the Atlantic West of the Cape of Good hope is represented by the British-Colonies Faction, so basically from Canada to Nigeria, everything in Europe the Med and around Suez and the Red Sea West of the Persian gulf is controlled by Britain.
Iron-War March 1941 draft ideas East Africa.tsvg
To shift the focus from Sub Saharan Africa to North Africa, one idea would be to switch the Nigerian factory to a rally point. So thematically you'd have the British Colonies using the safe cash in Canada to purchase ships for the battle of the Atlantic or fighters in West Africa, more than like boots on the ground for stack armies crushing it in that region. Especially if that's where France is focused. South Africa is a little problematic, since they exist more as a target than a viable faction, but they're also much smaller than the current British colonies faction, so they'd be more localized anyway with the can opening and such. Its also possible to expand their territory to include more of East Africa I suppose, sort of in the same way the British India includes stuff like Singapore and Burma etc. With Canada under British control as it is in the current, I think the British in North America feels a bit redundant after the first couple round or so, since there's really no need to buy ships there or do much else with it once the Allied fleet reaches UK home waters. I think with Egypt, they'd have at least some pressure and option for counter play in the opening rounds vs Italy/Germany.
I'm struggling to recall the earlier set ups from previous versions, I remember the 39 version had Egypt as a Neutral, before British-Colonies was expanded to include it. But anyhow, seems like it might work without straining credulity too much for a 1941 themed start. Not sure if anyone else is interested hehe.
I just think March 1941 would be a cool start date for a WW2 map, because it always kinda takes a backseat to 42, or 1940. Except for AA50 I guess lol. But on a big map like this, I think 41 at that point could definitely be fun. Right before the big Axis push, so that round 1 can have Axis expanding across all fronts (like the player is wont to do), and but then switching things up so that they receive Allied pressure sooner. All the 1942 games feel weird, because they start with Axis at the high water mark, but then still have Allies stalling out. Axis just globe trot for several rounds, well beyond the active theaters where the war was actually being fought in 41/42. I think something to tighten up the opener and actually build the Pearl Attack and Barbarossa to occur at the right time would be novel for a map game heheh.
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Might run a Soviet solo, using vanilla 3.0 since I think its been a while. This seemed like a kinda fun opener to try..
The Balkans play only works I supposed if AI Germany fails to reinforce it. The other moves showing pretty strong odds for though stand alone attacks. Esp with the kill early on Iran and such. Though that draws a big exchange, might be worth it just to stall Axis as hard as possible.
Made the non coms during combat movement just to see where the forces might consolidate.
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Been a while, but I fired this one up again for the old time charm! I was playing again with an idea to make the game somewhat more forgiving when it comes to fuel. Basically keeping everything else about it identical, but just a bit slushier hehe.
In this one the Major Powers each have 20 synth added to their starting Strategic Reserves and the Minor powers have a reserve of 5. Thematically they can be considered the stockpiles everybody built up prior to the outbreak of war, but this should give everyone enough fuel to carry the fight into 1943/44 before hitting the red too hard. It still burns out eventually, as more fuel consuming units enter, but with a bit more cushion. I also thought it might be more engaging for an AI game. The computer won't purchase additional synth barrels to scale up like the player can, but at least this gives them more flexibility to move their air and naval units about. It's essentially just a high fuel version of the vanilla 3.0, but still trying to maintain some interest for the fuel mechanic thing during the endgame. Anyhow just thought I'd toss it out there haha
Iron-War Strategic Fuel Reserve.tsvg
All the best!
Elk -
@black_elk heh heh nice to see ya Elk : )
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@beelee You too dude!
I enjoy this map. I think it has a fun scale and relatively straightforward style of gameplay. It's busy enough to be interesting for a WW2 A&A game, but not so busy that it gets too far away from that old school A&A charm. I find that for all it's various unit types, resources, smaller factions and whatnot, it still has a definite cohesion and overall simplicity to the rules that I like. More importantly, since it plays a lot like Revised, it seems to almost works for a single player campaign, which is always a plus lol.
The AI still whiffs it a fair bit, but it holds up surprisingly well despite the usual shortcomings hehe. I figured for a game vs the comp the player could just remove their own synth with a quick edit to maintain the usual challenge.
I still wish this map used v3 rules for carriers though. I like the old school flavor for the transports, but the carriers run into issues with the older revised style rules by moving existing fighters to an adjacent sz by land. If a sz is adjacent to more than 1 coastal factory, the player doesn't have a way tell game which factory to build from. It just defaults by list order or whatever.
This is an issue on G1, because if the German player wants to build a carrier in the Baltic Sea Zone the existing fighters have to be positioned in West Germany in order to move onto deck during the placement phase. They can't do it from say Poland or the East Germany coastal factory for example, even though this should possible. I guess unless they first buy enough other units to max the Western Germany factory so it will move along to the next coastal production spot? v3 rules would be simpler and more familiar from the recent A&A games I would think, if this map ever gets a version 4.0 I think that'd be my top request, along with a bit more fuel. Probably doesn't need to be quite this slushy, but I just wanted to high ball something haha
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Hi there. This map looks fun. Is it good for PvP? Should the humans play all the nations, or give minor allies to AI?
I see that ships cannot pass between Baltic and North Sea on turn 1 (until Germany captures Denmark). Whilst I understand this mechanically, is it ahistorical, and detrimental to gameplay?
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I also can't pass through the Gibraltar strait in turn 1. I guess I can understand that a little more, but it does seem a bit limiting. Eg if Italy captures Gibraltar then it locks the Allies out of the Med.
