Iron War - Official Thread
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It is hardly possible to make Chinese/Japanese front similar to Eastern front with increasing Chinese production strenght only. China would be unrealistically overpowered for Japan to match even if China just had half of the production of Japan. In this case Japan itself would be either doomed to fall or taking China first even becomes more a railroading task due to higher Chinese incomes. Reducing Chinese strenght is just gives us the current China on WWII maps.
The only way presenting China without turning it overpowered or simply making it doomed to fall is having special Chinese/Japanese defensive units which would result moving each other's zones too costly and Japan would most likely stay defensive in here and prioritize other fronts.
I don't like Japan easily marching towards Russia either. It is just as railroaded as Chinese situation. I've came with this idea.
This is my far eastern front with mostly v3 unit designs. But the exception is Russia has a special unit called siberian with 2/3/1 stats and 3Pu cost value which can be recruited only from these circles. With this situation Russia and Japan will act like they are set neutral towards each other because Japanese-Russian war wouldn't benefit either side much but this option still open for both sides.
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@Schulz what do you think of my idea to give China a cheap fodder unit? They can't really pressure Japan much, and Japan can't really do much to them either, at least not early for a reasonable cost.
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Exactly, they need cheap fodder unit. It is much better idea than increasing Chinese income. Domination 1914's Arabia with Bedouins would be good example to adopt similar concept to Chinese front. I have been extensively thinking the Chinese front for hours then I guess I got a vague idea;
In 1942 scenario Japan starts with 28 Income while China is just 6 but due to longer distance and possible cheaper Chinese cannon fodders, Japan should not prioritize Chinese front in here plus Sinkiang is easy to reinforce from other allied centers.
And if we give China a unit with Bedouin's stats, China could get more options too instead figting frontal war with Japan only. Their units due to cheaper cost might handy in eastern front and India too. Normally I was mostly againt Chinese presence in WWII games but after rethinking it could make sense.
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@ff03k64 said in Iron War - Official Thread:
@Schulz what do you think of my idea to give China a cheap fodder unit? They can't really pressure Japan much, and Japan can't really do much to them either, at least not early for a reasonable cost.
I found it to work well on the Global 40 map. Has a Militia unit that is A0 D1 M1 C2. Can conquer territories. Had to limit to 8 max build so they can't be spammed out of control. Also has Primitive terrain in the interior of China and most of soviet Asia as well. All units can only move 1, except air.
I'm not real familiar with Iron War and I think it uses a different die system but the cheaper unit and slowing Japan's speed seems too work pretty good at keeping them from being steamrolled. USA can also send additional Flying Tiger units and china has some AA capability as well.
At any rate you'd have to fine tune for the specific game but I've found those things to work pretty good.
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@beelee A D10 system, where the base unit is a 2/3/1 infantry for 10 PUs.
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@ff03k64 right on your 0/2/1 would probably be the way to go then. Maybe 8 bucks ? A starting point anyway. Although it didn't look as if Frostion wanted to add any new units.
Was just more of a general response to WWII maps in general that have that issue
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@Frostion
Glad to see that you finally came out play.:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
Really looking forward to trying out your new setup and other updates in the future. -
@Schulz cool map concept. I always really enjoy seeing different possible ways the China map geometry/production might work. In the official A&A games up to this point we've seen quite a few different approaches and they've all been pretty radically different. G40 probably comes closest to a somewhat accurate modelling, but there's a fair amount of rules overhead in that one hehe.
@beelee yeah on this map, the other factions that have access to a spam fodder unit are priced at like 6 PUs a pop and they use a recruitment resource to cap the number that can be bought per turn like @ff03k64 mentioned. Currently Italy, France, French-Colonies, British-Colonies, British-India and KNIL all have access to them. I think basically the same unit in China would accomplish something similar to the militia unit concept. Conveniently the recruitment resource is already called CR. The C could be Colonial, or in this case could stand for China. Regular infantry attack at 2 and defend at 3 under D10 combat, whereas the Colonial Infantry, attacks and defends at 2. But they can both be boosted by artillery or trucked along with mech, so the spam units can be pretty effective in combat and a hitpoint's a hitpoint right haha, so I think might work. I guess one possibility, if unit art can't be easily created, might be to just make all of China's infantry at the price point and combat values of Colonial Inf elsewhere, though that could be a little confusing since everyone else has a base 10 inf unit standard. Germany, USSR, and USA also each have a variant type infantry unit on this one.
For production, in the last version China is at around 20-30 PUs depending on whether the USA sends them cash. Japan has about 100-120 PUs after the opener. China has 2 production tiles, at Chunking as the primary with a fall back tile in the far west basically corresponding to Sinkiang on most A&A maps. The way things are drawn Japan is basically 2 moves vs the Chunking Pocket, coastal landing and then 1 move to the production front. So Japan has a lot to work with, and its not too dissimilar from Global in that way, except that here there are fewer total tiles for China. I agree with @Schulz that absent other things going on, the danger with introducing too much production in this area, is that it becomes an all or nothing situation, where Japan either has to totally commit to China (in which case they stomp) or else Japan gets stomped if they don't. And that's not really optimal. I think what we want is a situation where its desirable for Japan to pin China, and to hold the stack at an interior tile, but where its not necessarily worth the cost for them to go for the kill. I think some of that could be handled by the surrounding topography, especially since this game has the impassible mountains and nearby neutrals. A shift in PU values combined with a spam unit I think could do the trick, for a 1941 type game where Japan has supposedly been at war there for 5 years already. I think when the start date is earlier like 1940, then you get a kind of different theme going down. Because historically if there was going to be a big change to the Japanese war plan, say the Army plan to commit vs the Soviets rather than the Navy plan to go after the Dutch Islands and central Pacific, then the earlier in the war the more realistic that becomes to imagine. The front in China would be similar for either date, but the unit compositions or things like that might be changed to account for differences in the opener. I'm excited to check out this rally-point idea, because I think that could make a key change to how some of the production fronts and battle lines draw up. USA aid could also be a thing that's explored, perhaps with an option for Allies to drop more cash into the Chinese coffers once the US is scaled up. The AI doesn't use the resource exchange feature I don't think, so that's maybe a consideration for how heavily to weight it, but I think finding a cool balance for China and also for a Soviet-Japan NAP is always kind of a hidden goal whenever I muse on how it might be set up on whatever map lol.
Hope everyone is having a fun weekend! I'm out walk the greyhound for a few, but sure to cruise back through tomorrow. Catch ya guys then
Best Elk
ps. just got the new one downloaded. I ran a quick Solo for the opener taking over the USA turn block. Pretty nice attack pattern from the HardAI, since they took Denmark and such. I'm feeling the turn order too. Look forward to grinding it out and seeing the rally point in action, teasing out the new playbalance hehe. Nice work dude!
Here it is on USA1 after the machine did its bit. AI Ruskies were having none of Romania, and made a big Balkans blast to kick things off. Looks like France is trying down the fort for at least another turn, and KNIL wants to hold New Guinea which is cool. Italy cleared the Eastern Med and is pressing on Egypt. Brit Block felt solid, Aussies moved to back up Guadalcanal which is cool. Japan took Changsha on the coast and Philippines, they positioned IJN at Wake. I gotta skip out for a few, but I'm sure this will keep me up all night hahah ...
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo USA1.tsvg
Oh cool I just saw the rally point come into play. Germany reconquered Romania, and then Balkans was able to place their infantry unit. Nice! If not for the factory bug thing, I bet they'd have rebuilt too. Took me a sec to see where they are but now I see the national flag has a slightly larger gold circle around it where the rally points are, and the AI definitely seems to be targeting them. I dig it!
I just got smoked at by HardAI Japan at Pearl lol. I gotta say I definitely think the transport lowered steel cost is cool, fun stuff! It may make Sea Lion pretty wild, but that can always be handled and clearly they'll have Russia to think about if attempting transport spam for that. I think the PU cost will still cap what G can do, but I really like it for the US and for some of the smaller nations that were struggling at the cost of 2 steel. Transports at 1 steel gives them a way to get on the board. Next time I'll probably have to use a bit more steel for US warships to defend the prize at Pearl I guess hehe. I think we can call this one for the machine after that smack down, but I'll start another when I get home a little later. Well done!
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo USA2.tsvg
ps. OK I played the second solo for another 4 rounds. I really like the the Rally Point unit, I think it has managed to activate most of the areas where they exist, and the AI definitely seems to be playing better as a result. Given that AI seems to be targeting them, I wonder if it might make sense to have them at Singapore, Denmark, Gibraltar and Panama? Could help for the computer with canal control, or just to highlight. But so far I love the way they work on the islands. Even the spots that got dropped like Iceland and Morocco seem to work well this way. Its also cool because it creates a capture incentive for all those spots. I like the 1 unit cap, it creates some cool incentives to place high value warships or tanks which I think. I think they will also be kinda cool when it comes to units like Rockets or Kamikazes and the like. Its a great innovation! I think its introduction makes the whole map a lot more dynamic. Nicely done there!
I really find this turn order a lot smoother, and the tension on Italy is nice. In this one I moved USA to activate Spain, old school Classic Spanish landing pad hehe. I actually don't mind it, cause it just sort of feels like an expanded space representing Gibraltar or like the whole Med theater of OPs. On Axis side because of the move through, I'd guess G or Italy would probably want to commit a few units to Spanish defense, just to keep Allies off it in early rounds. In this one G opened the Bosporus so Axis got kinda wily in the Black Sea lol. Overall the AI seems to be playing pretty well, using the Rally Point to place units. The extra German starting factory in Poland also helps, as now they spawn their subs as intended. In this game they used the normandy rally point for that, which was kinda cool. Feels like actual sub pens positioning more on Atlantic that way. I like it a lot so far.
Right then off to eat dinner. Catch ya in a few2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo USA4.tsvg
Next I'll prob try a German solo, and see what we're looking at from the other side.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Germany 1 combat.tsvg
Mass transport spam is still potent, but I like the balance. On G2 I think I got London dead to rights by buying nothing but transports since they can move pretty much all their starting hitpoints this way. With the reduced steel cost I think Germany should probably only have 1 transport for the Kriegsmarine at the start in North Sea Zone? That'd prob still be enough to get them on Normandy or Norway. Otherwise I like it, there's already a tough balance off Leningrad, so going for England is debatable. In this game I went for the opening attack on Ukraine which was a bit more intense with the added units, but I think still worth the hit. I think here the optimal it still G3 timing for Leningrad, over taking London. But the London battle is about 70% to German attacker on G2 here. Prob closer to 85% if I'd landed the fighters in West Germany instead of Poland. Though Leningrad I think the bigger prize, even if using transport spam. Anyhow G2 this was the first one out on Axis solo haha
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Germany 2 combat.tsvg
Pretty massive showdown for the G3 timing. AI Stalin isn't messing around heheh. Still I think it's pretty good positioning to crack the north on G3. I dig it. I think there is probably a sea lion G2 play vs the computer which could be fun too, but I went for more standard set up here. I think the Russia factory at Kuyby will definitely come in handy for Allies to manage the Eastern front. Good times so far!
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Germany 3 combat.tsvg
This is kind of a fun fuel dilemma in round 6, cause like after breaking into Leningrad and chasing the Soviets back all the way to Kuyby, it really forces a choice between returning the fleet to the Channel for defense vs Western naval stack, or using the fuel for the Soviets kill. Cause just not quite enough fuel to do both, but that's the kind of thing I like that the fuel aspect involves.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Germany 6 combat.tsvg
I went for fleet repositioning as top fuel priority, easier to manage a delay on killing Russia while stacking the channel with carrier drop I figured. I definitely enjoyed watching the attack pattern from HardAI Japan on the team. I think the rally points definitely pull them onto the central pacific which is really cool to see. They have basically conquered most of their island objectives, even taking a little piece of Australia, and the major theater of ops has been more Pacific island hop oriented for Japan which is aces. I think everyone likes that stuff when US/Japan both have a reason to hop around to claim the rally points on the islands. Just makes the naval game a lot more fun there too.
Axis I think are within striking distance now in this one, fun for a G solo and feels like a plausible state of affairs for round 7 of the game early 1943, had things gone very well for Germany on the Eastern front at the outset haha.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Germany 7 combat.tsvg
I'll prob try one with Italy or the Brit block next. I'm digging the feel though 3.0 definitely has a way more engaging production spread. I like it.
yeah Brits it is hehe. The hard AI opened pretty well for Germany, taking Normandy and such. I think the rally point must be drawing them more on target there which is cool. Excited to see how the Brit turn plays under the new conditions. Maybe later night or tomorrow.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Brits 1 combat.tsvg
Pretty entertaining so far. We beat HardAI US to Morocco, and managed to take Somalia with South Africa. But British Colonies was just crushed at Egypt. We tried to strafe back from El Alamein but to no avail there hehe. ANZAC feels a lot more interesting with the rally points over there too. We tried in this one to cover the Dutch, but got ejected from Guadalcanal, and stomped at Java. But the home fleet is secure and on target for Norway. I like the sequence, it feels smooth to me.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo Brits 4 combat.tsvg
ANZAC has been pretty entertaining. HardAI Japan came at me in Darwin, but we managed to pull a rescue move for South Africa HQ in Somalia and then reclaim Egypt for British Colonies, so they got a dual front going. British India managed to drop Iran, but Iraq is still kicking about. This time Britain activated the Spanish landing pad, again just kinda feels like an extension of Gibraltar so I dig having a bit more room there to house the units. Morocco has been churning out a tank a round for Monty to hopefully get something going lol. I think Allies are set for Total Victory at the end of the round now.
2020-9-26-Iron-War 3.0 solo ANZAC 6 placement.tsvg
Going to pass out now, but might pick it up tomorrow and try the Soviet turn block. Anyhow, good times so far. Till next round
G'night!
Elk -
I guess setting up China roughly 4.5 times weaker than 1942 Japan mostly works perfectly with that China doesn't fall too easily while Japan can successfully compete in Chinese front too without prioritizing it. Having checked Global and China is exactly it is if it started in 1942. Defininitely one of the good Chinese presence. But I would definitely add mobile Chinese units too.
But also setting up China 12 results 54'ish Japan and it's 1942 borders overpowers both USA and Germany and becomes almost two times stronger than Russia. Japan should be no way come close to German or American production capacity. Having too strong Japan allows it to expand almost all directions successfully including unhistorical/easy marching toward Russia. Also Japan can make deadzones in Pacific too easily to counter USA. In that case USA just goes Europe and it just becomes a race to Berlin by Western Allies vs Mocow by Japan like its in WWIIv341.
I do believe 1942 Germany should be at least 50% stronger than 1942 Japan and the ratio can be increased depends on situations.
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About to kick it off with the Soviets. I noticed that Russia has a shot on Iran at basically 65-70% if Germany doesn't send any aircraft. So that's something for Axis player to consider. First round hit on Balkans black sea fleet is about the same at around 70%. The other 3 battles up North here are each like 95%, so I could see that as pretty decent. Giving an option to stack pressure eastern Finland with mech from Arch or Leningrad if things go well. HardAI Germany didn't go after Ukraine, so Ruskies got some heat. The Balkans attack here I think is 80%, but the swing it pretty high. Soviet Far East is similar with Soviet odds on for Hailar battle, but again high potential swing. I think more conservative would be to wait until USSR to launch the major attacks and mainly non com, but if playing Machine I think something like this could be fun. I'll be interested to see how France, French-Colonies and KNIL feel, since they have some new options off the rally points in Madagascar, French India etc. Argentina at 5 also seems like it might be a possibility for one the little guys if they can get it before Brazil does haha. Right then, off for a few but I'll post some saves later when I get a chance to run it.
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 1 combat.tsvg
We fought Iran to a draw but failed to take the tile in the opener, should be set for next round though. Other battles went according to plan. Snaked Balkans to drop that stack and kill the factory, but G still has it deadzoned I'd imagine. Far East result in Hailar was pretty solid. Will have to think on where to position and what to buy after dinner hehe.
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 1 non com.tsvg
G reclaimed Balkans and J reclaimed Hailar pretty much as expected. We got Iran dead to rights this time, but Finland is kind of a toss up. HardAI Germany went after the Anglo fleet up by the Soviet convoy, so it's possible. Probably better to wait on it since Leningrad is a little tight, but I'm temped to crush them heheh. In the Far East looks like we might have a chance to go all agro vs Japan with a counter offensive. French Colonies did the PT boat block, and now Soviet subs might make the difference for team Allies if they can smoke the destroyer and kill thosr Japanese transports hanging out by Kamchatka.
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 2.tsvg
Zhukov was killed in the battle for Jehol, down to the last tank. Hard AI Japan pounced hehe. Looks the Germans have arrived at the doorstep of Stalingrad now. We took Iraq and French Colonies is moving HQ to Syria to try and shore it up.
Fun stuff so far2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 4.tsvg
Showdown in South America, Buenos Aires! hehe
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo KNIL 4 purchase.tsvgDefeat! lol
HardAI had me crushed in Leningrad, guess it was a little too fast and loose for Stalin that time. Better luck next round. Well done AI Germany heheh
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 5.tsvg
I enjoyed it! Felt pretty high stakes the whole time and I think having French-Colonies and KNIL in there definitely gives it a nice spin. I'll do Japan for a solo run next I think.
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Ok I ran a Japan solo under 3.0 to see how it played. I enjoyed the dynamic much more under the latest build. The introduction of the Rally-point makes a huge difference for the production front, definitely the best thing going on here and most interesting change from the previous build. Japan feels much more realistic for a 1940 start date and really has to make some choices especially about where to send starting transports, and whether or when to buy more transports.
Unfortunatley the HardAI seems not to purchase many transports in Pacific, and there is some oddball behavior leaving them loaded constantly. I don't know if that's map specific or if its maybe transports on the fritz the same way factories are? But in any case, just having the rally-point makes in there makes all the areas where they exist more interesting. The computer spawns hitpoints at them, and seems to target the opponents rally-points so that is great. Air transports I think the computer may be overvaluing, since I recall seeing them sometimes take a hit on a fighter or capital ship before the transport. I almost wonder if the attack value of the air transport should just be raised so that it function a little more like a fighter on attack? Currently they are attack 1 defend 1, but might be fun if they were like attack 3 defend 1. Like a supped up artillery/mech with wings. Anyhow just an idea, for the most part I like the way everything feels. Obviously the computer doesn't transport anything along with their air transports. So right now it just uses air transports as a hitpoint, but I think its TUV value has it remaining as last casualty in the air. This kind of makes sense for a tranport, since the ability to move a hitpoint is huge. But slight attack increase might make that feel more sensible. Right now I'd say the factory bug is the biggest thing, but I wonder if some transport stuff is wonky. Mech fortunatly still transports inf around. I remember redrum mentioned at some point doing air transport for AI, but not sure if that's still slated?
Anyhow here is the Japan solo. I went with the center crush tactic. USA has the Midway rally point stacked pretty heavy, so going high castle seems like a tall order lol. Team Axis took the TKO heading into 10th round, with AI Italy making a cutty blitz vs Moscow. I was pretty pleased with how the computer teammates played. Felt on target and G even went forward vs England on the water which was cool to see.
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo Japan 9 victory.tsvgAfter that I needed some Russian redemption from my earlier trouncing by the AI hehe. This time I went more KJF attack plan to take Manchuria for the Soviets. It make the balance on Leningrad pretty intense and team Axis pressed well into Stalingrad and Kuyby. There was also more back and forth in the Mid East, since I went light into Iran on the second turn and had to do a lot of trading to staying forward. This one took closer to a dozen rounds before being able to nix the German forward stack. Pretty fun playing France and French Colonies. I went with Madagascar transport and Syria liberation plan. French Indo got dropped after a few rounds, but KNIL was able to maintain at Sumatra, and managed to get some dudes over to the Mid East before their transports were blown up by Italian subs hehe. Good times
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo USSR 13 victory.tsvg
I think I'll try Italy tonight
Computer opened pretty nicely as G, this time they reinforced Balkans with fighters. I think because they used the bomber in a raid vs Normandy rather than to sink the Russian fleet in the gulf of Bothnia. Anyhow, seems like a good start there. French-Colonies reinforced Madagascar which seems solid. I think Italy has a hit on British-Colonies fleet in the eastern Med if they send everything and are willing to sac the transport. But its high risk high reward, and seems a bit dicey. I think Greece or Gibraltar is probably the more conservative, and just let the Brit-Colonies fleet escape. Not sure yet, still looking it over hehe.
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo Italy 1.tsvg
Took it 7 rounds so far pretty close. I went Western Med with the fleet to try and stop the Atlantic approach, and Soviets almost cracked Iran as a result, but HardAI Germany flew in to the rescue and sank the Caspian transport with a clutch save hehe. We got the Regia Marina prowling Atlantic now. Debating on whether to snake the Guianas or keep up the West Africa campaign. I like it, feels entertaining. The Rally Points give more of a contest. HardAI Japan has been managing pretty well, the managed to keep their starting transports which I think helped a lot. Eastern Front stack contest is pretty is major. Mecha G just cracked Moscow, but Soviets are still pretty deep on Leningrad, I wonder who which of them will prevail? hehe Right then back to Il Duce, catch ya in a few!
2020-9-27-Iron-War 3.0 solo Italy 7.tsvg
ps. wrapped it after dozen rounds. HardAI USA did a pretty clutch move to destroy the Regia Marina and strand my Italian expeditionary force in the Guianas. Axis clinched the TKO in the 12th, but the stack contest between Mecha G and Skynet Stalin is still going. For some reason AI Ruskies gave up a lot of ground off the center. In general I think the Rally Point has improved the game quite a bit, even despite AI deficiencies with purchasing and defending Factories. Perhaps a couple on the East front might be fun. They've definitely made the game a lot more dynamic in spots where they exist. I think the machine would stomp a lot harder if US/Japan were buying more naval transports. Some of the smaller guys buy them, but the US has a ton of ground it could be moving. The computer stacks its fighters in curious places, Brits seem to favor Vancouver for example over London, but maybe those get trapped by fuel after moving air transports or something? Not sure, but anyway on the whole it still feels pretty fun for a solo. Surely Invasion USA will be harder hehe
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@Frostion
Finally made it through the Axis side. Won it in round 9. I played all axis nations. v0.2.9I think the victory settings are a little excessive for the Axis. It might just be the route that I took to victory, but I feel like if they get to 18 VC (maybe even 17) or 550 production (maybe even 500), they really shouldn't be able to lose any more, so those lower numbers could probably be the victory conditions.
Allies are probably alright economically because of what they start with. But they could probably do with 19 VC.
How is this map balanced for PvP? it feels like i really couldn't have won against a real person as opposed to the AI as the Axis.
The Axis minor nations really feel pretty meh... Especially Iran and Iraq as separate nations.
The Allied minors feel a little better, but still a little over saturated. I feel like British colonies and South Africa could easily be merged. ANZAC and KNIL could also be easily merged. And France could be limited to mostly her mainland territory, and the rest merged with the french colonies. Brazil could probably join the USA. They do add a little extra dynamic to the game, but I wouldn't want to play them all again. Maybe it is better if they are AI controlled though.
I think it might be fun to have a map like this with just the original 5 nations from original A&A. Not to replace this, but as a new game using the same map and ruleset.
Until the AI can handle Building factories again, i think SBR needs to go. You could literally remove AI nations from the game on the first or second turn with SBR.
Until the AI can handle fuel better, they should probably get free synth fuel on triggers periodically. Would have to test to figure out the optimal amounts are though. They get severely neutered after a few turns. I have some thoughts for how to do this, though i don't know how well they will work, it might give you something to start from.
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I was thinking the same thing earlier tonight, regarding a possible collapsing of minor nations into the larger ones, still retaining a 6 block turn order, but with fewer nations as separate players. I think that might work well for a 1941 scheme where total war conditions and larger break outs would make more sense. The separate smaller nations in this one are a novelty I think, like cool to imagine playing as Free France and the like. But I could also see an advantage to having a single player per turn block, just because it would play faster per round.
One possible idea would be to retain the map and unit roster ruleset etc, but just dime it out to a 6 man.
Germany, USSR, Italy, Britain, Japan, USA using neutrals in such a way that Allies have to bring their territories on board in the opening rounds.So as an example China/Brazil could be under a US aegis, Free France could be under Britain etc.
The main challenge usually with these games is how to handle the UKs sprawling starting territories and how to balance the production spread off that. One possibility would be to split the UK in two: the British Empire, and the Commonwealth Dominions.
British Empire would be UK home islands + Labrador and Newfoundland in North America, the Atlantic/Caribbean, West Africa, Egypt and India. Using the British unit set
Dominions would basically be the rest, Canada, South Africa, ANZAC/Pacific etc probably using the British Colonies or British India unit set for the most adaptive look.
Then KNIL, France territories could either made neutral or assigned to one or the other British faction depending on the balance and gameplay interest. For turn order I think you could just block them together in the same sequence, so one moves after the other, but with different production to try and maintain the scale by sides.
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I can also imagine how it might look with all British territories under a single faction like Classic/AA50 etc, but on a map this scale I kinda think a split would work better. I kinda like the division into Empire and Dominions, but it could also go Atlantic/Pacific split along that mid east meridian the way global has it. But even that one threw ANZAC into the Mix for charm heheh.China I think you could do direct US/Soviet control, by having a pocket territory at +5 and a rally point that each could start out with and the rest neutrals that have to be claimed. US controlled China would represent Nationalist controlled KMT, Soviet Controlled China would represent Communist controlled CCP.
The smaller Axis factions could be split between Germany or Italy, or made a neutral that they can take over and I think you'd have something pretty clean. It would be liked a faster slimmed down primer, maybe easier to pick up, but still using new resources and the roster, the tech, ruleset etc. I'd almost think if going that route where each player/faction is larger in terms of starting territory, that the number of starting units could be scaled down somewhat, or re-distributed to offset whatever change in territory ownership/production makes sense for doing something like that.
Anyhow, I agree that the map would be cool trying to do the original nations. I think I like the 6 block sequence for this one, over the 5 man of Classic. The way the rules work, its better to have another Axis nation in the sequence for can opener disrupting, than it is to have Allied piggyback USA/USSR like the older games so I'd keep Italy in the mix. But yeah, the itself map is rad. I think it could definitely support something like that as a variant, maybe 1941 start date?
ps. Just for a rough estimate, if every sensible Atlantic territory went to Britain for direct control (i.e. all of Africa, France, French colonies etc) its about 140-50 PUs. If every territory in the Pacific is assigned to India its about 80-100 PUs depending on whether of not the Dutch are included or just made neutral. That actually seems like a pretty workable scale to me. The tension on the one side would be between India and the South Pacific, on the other side between Western Europe and Africa basically. I can also see ways that it could be divided up more in terms of who controls what, if doing a Dominions style approach. You could have some areas on either side of the map controlled by one British Factions or the other just for variety, but Atlantic/Pacific might be simpler. Alternatively a single faction where everything is controlled just by Britain also seems workable, provided they had fewer starting units as an offset, and of course assuming Axis will conquer a large part of it in the opening round. That's basically how Classic worked, but of course on a much larger map here haha
Here's a quicky example of how it might look, just using edit mode to clear it down for a draft.
I put some flags in there just for the decorative aspect hehe. Just meant to show how China or France/Vichy and whatnot might be done. I used french colonies flags to show vichy territories under Axis aegis at the outset. Or put them from the just to show which stuff changed hands from one side to the other. This based on the Dec 1941 territorial extent basically, eve of Pearl Harbor. Obviously starting units would need to be reworked for later period, but shows how the territory divisions might break down with a UK faction split Atlantic/Pacific style.
2020-9-30-Iron-War 6 MAN Brit Split with flags.tsvg
Think something with that sort of vibe might work? Might be fun for a spin off
Also just finished another Solo play as USA/China/Brazil. Pretty solid for the entertainment factor. I dig it how the US actually has a reason to try and move on both sides of the board, whereas in A&A its usually optimal to focus on one side over the other. Rally Point had a kinda interesting effect of making the core Japanese territories pretty well stacked for the endgame. Iwo and such sporting like 10 hitpoints a pop, which was cool. We managed to press pretty well into the Med. The rally points there make that front more engaging. I think Spanish landing would probably be fairly standard, since the best +5 other than Norway to try and get something going early on vs Axis. In this one I locked down as soon as I could and then kept gunning on Libya. I enjoy how there are more stepping stones now. Anyhow here it was at the dawn of the nuclear era hehe right before we actually nuked anything.
2020-9-30-Iron-War 3.0 solo USA 12.tsvg
I think in general I've favored adding VCs, just since there are so many possible spots that might make sense historically. But the rally point actually functions more the way I wish VCs did in the regular games. Something that has an in game application beyond just the Win conditions. I kinda just play to watch the map change colors after a certain point though lol. For a PvP type situation it'd be more relevant for sure than it is in the skynet stomp. I definitely dig the latest iteration with the rally point. I think those are definitely a great add
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@Frostion said in Iron War - Official Thread:
SS-Infantry and SS-Panzer now have a “tuv” higher than their cost, making the calculator take normal Infantry and normal Heavy-Tank as casualties before these units.
I saw this change to "TUV", and I was wondering how you did it.
Could you do that to fuel barrels to make it more likely the AI targets them?
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the code is
<option name="tuv" value="12"/>
the above line is put the the
<attachment name="unitAttachment"
section for the unit you wish to increase. -
@TheDog Thanks, i will have to make use of this on my map as well!
@Frostion If it is that easy, i think i would give fuel a value of like 25 and synth fuel a value of at least 10. Thinking of this, i would maybe give iron a value of like 10 or 15 as well. Fuel could probably be even more than that for now, considering how much trouble the AI has with fuel constraints. Steel isn't that big of a deal, but it would be nice if the AI at least tried for it a little.
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How much should AI be boosted in sinlge playing?
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@Schulz
A lot. There is no simple answer to your question, please be specific.Currently there are a few AI changes that would make the AI better, top of the list is;
v2.3 to build factories like it did in v1.9
and reduce the over stacking of units at capitals when they are far from the battle front.There are many others but those two would make the AI more to fun to play against.
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@Schulz I think if you give them like an extra %50 resources and that helps. But the biggest issue with the AI on this map is not understanding how fuel works.
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Yeah it was innovative to use TUV as a means of tweaking the AIs behavior in casualty selection, and targeting attacks.
I can definitely see it going on with the air-transport, since I think that is now the most valuable unit. I've seen the AI take a casualty on a battleship over the air-transport as the attacker. Maybe since the AI already seems to privilege' air over naval for units of equivalent value (which makes sense generally.) I think maybe just making the air transport slightly more badass on attack would be a good way to go. Attack 3 defend 1, still basically just a hitpoint with wings, but more on par with art boosted inf for an independent attack value. The computer uses them strictly like fighters, so at least they'd be a bit cooler sans transportation aspect.
I think the higher TUV value is maybe also what draws the computer to Rally Points? That's cool
I agree that if TUV can be used to coax the AI into regarding territories with resources or factories as being more important, then that would make a ton of sense. As a stat TUV is kind of vague anyway, it gives a sense of the overall unit value in play, but without the nuance, Production Income and total unit number are more useful for the quick read anyway, so TUV value of units could be a cool way to actually get the AI to fight harder on the map.
I think there's a bit of an appetite for cool solo games, so this could be a fun one to try it. Or perhaps instead of meddling too much with the vanilla, we could build out an experimental version and try more of those ideas. With the understanding that the scenario is meant more for that style of play than PvP. Finding a fuel amount that works, or using triggers, whatever makes sense. I think a simplified turn sequence could make it pretty quick even with HardAI, surely with FastAI. Then provide some kind of difficulty setting that can be modified along one dimension or another, to set the play scale. You know, like from "Newb" to "Advanced" to "Wheel of Pain" levels of difficulty heheh, just based on the recommended launch settings/game notes.
@Schulz I agree with @ff03k64 the simplest way to change the challenge scale would be a way to give the AI more fuel. Unfortunately right now you can't do this directly from the launch screen or via the edit mode.
It will allow the user to edit the PUs of each nation, but not the other resources. Same deal at the launch window you can add PUs as bonus income but not steel or fuel. If you change the income percentage, then it will increase all PUs and Resources by that level. So if you just want to add 50% more fuel, you'd have to do the same with Steel and PUs.
You can edit add fuel units manually, but that's kinda cumbersome. I think the AI should just automatically get unlimed fuel on this map, it's the only for their moves not to break down when a lot of fuel units enter play through purchase. If fuel could be made unlimited for the AI, that'd give a baseline challenge level, then adding income % or flat bonus from the launch menu would be an easier way to scale it, since you could go up more incrementally that way. 110% 115% 120% etc or just give a flat bonus. This map doesn't have a bid like some others, instead its a choice of recurring bonus at various levels. A bid might be interesting, but probably the computer would goof it in weird ways and the number would end up needing to be much larger.
For this one I think it becomes kind of unplayable at 150%, because the real determining factor there is whether Russia or Germany is made so strong through a bonus that it can just steamroll everything in its path hehe. But other than that most of the naval powers can still be handled at 150%, in regions where the stack contest isn't as massive its not as big of an issue. Just a longer grind that way. Probably with a bunch of scrub reloads to actually win lol, kinda the way most single player campaign games work in other franchises. Choosing the ultra hard setting probably entails a few re-tries at that level I'd guess. At that kind of income boost, I think any kind of metagaming is chill. A lot comes down to killing some enemy factories really quickly before they can build up out of hand, especially since where the little guys can stack up in concert. Actually I'm kind of curious I might play one out tonight just to see what it looks like now with all the rally points. I think they might make a big difference with helping the AI to manage at a higher overall income level.
Ok here is first attempt as Axis vs HardAI Allies at 150% under the 3.0 set up. I tried for the max pressure possible on Leningrad right here at G3. Round 1 bought 3 additional transports, Round 2 max artillery for the amphib with the remainder of purchase on a fighter and a tank destroyer. For Italy plan was basically to shore up the Egypt and then Gibraltar as main priority round 2. Japan went Philippines and French Indo on J1, Changsha and Sumatra by the skin of our teeth on J2, which I think is about as far as Japan is going to get here, before needing to double back on coverage to secure Manchuria from Soviet aggression. Russia collecting at like 200 per turn after the boost (plus all the extra officers and steel etc) makes for a pretty scary Russian Bear ready to maul! Here they stacked the Leningrad VC with as many tanks as they could for defense, but Germany still has the overall hitpoint advantage. Pretty close so far.... but I think round 3 is the critical round. Either Axis make the big crack here to stay in the running or else AI Allies will stack too heavy to crush with such a high bonus. I think it works in the opener at this level but after the next few rounds I imagine the AI starts to really stack up. I'll keep it going for a few and see what tricks they pull lol
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus G 3 combat.tsvg
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus G 3 placement.tsvg
Went for the Moscow snag with Finland but got turned back! Figures hehe. Anyhow here's how AI Stalin chose to counter... Not bad considering.
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus Italy 3.tsvg
The AI undervalues Arch, but least they attempted re-stack at Moscow. Would have been interesting to see how it would look instead of the Soviets had just withdrawn their Leningrad stack to Arch or Moscow initially. Not sure if the AI was able to parse out the amphib threat? The large battles can have a really dramatic swing, so perhaps its not a bad risk with such huge numbers, but pretty sure we had them smoked no matter what they built at Leningrad with every German unit available for the G3 hit.
Here it is a round later on G4...
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus G4.tsvg
At 150% the HardAI Allies have been able to move many more aircraft to the front, so its starting to get a little interesting here. The smaller guys that we weren't able to knock off in the opening rounds are starting to build pretty steady. Just saw a South African carrier make a move against Italy off the coast of East Africa hehe. Not bad! At this point its a little tough to say which battle front would be best to focus on. I think G probably has to keeping dumping hitpoints into the fight with Russia or risk getting stalemated on the Eastern Front. But everywhere else I think there are at least 2 or 3 directions one might go from here, which is cool. I'm zorsted for the night, but I'll keep it rolling tomorrow and see what cracks off in the midgame. Catch you guys in a few
Best Elk
woke up in the middle of the night decided to rock a few more rounds haha. Axis took the TKO in the 5th round for VCs, but I'm pressing on because most of the Allied units are just getting into place. Eastern front has been rolled pretty thoroughly by Germany. It took a few rounds to get the Italian and Japanese fronts stabilized, but they're up to snuff on production now. Some of the little guys are still hammering away hehe. South Africa just took Riyadh! Upsetting Iranian ambitions across the gulf just as they seemed to finally be breaking out lol.
I'd say the major dilemma right now is actually getting the German fleet to forward position off Normandy. USA has like 25 aircraft in range to join their fleet, so I just bought a gang of German PT boats and am waiting on to move one spot at a time. I fear the Italian fleet may be vulnerable if I don't get em together pretty soon hehe. Italy can't take that kind of heat yet. Japan last round finally got the production game going after some back and forth mainly with transports. We got the US to break ranks when we repositioned the IJN off coast of Shanghai. I think it might actually be the strongest home fleet position for Japan now that the Rally points at Iwo Okinawa and Changsha allow for builds there. We expanded at Shanghai last round just to ice it for bigger naval spams hehe. USA thus far has only placed transports in the Atlantic theater.
Anyhow, here it is on J6 still going to town. Pretty enjoyable, at least AI has got more stuff moving around feels doable at 150% at least as Axis vs HardAI Allies..
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus Japan 6.tsvg
Oh just saw USA buy transports for the Pacific. I did a sneaky strike against Truk while we had our guard down. On the Atlantic side they threw some sacrifice transports forward to liberate Normandy and take Morocco with light forces, repositioning their main fleet on Atlantic Sea Zone 3. It may the opening the Kriegsmarine has been waiting for! heheh
2020-10-1-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI allies +150 bonus G8.tsvg
Night!
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