Middle Earth: Battle For Arda - Official Thread

[redrum]

@alkexr Given that each faction in LOTR is supposed to feel unique, doing a combination where each faction has some sort of unique ability/objective/etc would be cool (rather than lots of the bland objectives). So maybe one of them has the ability that they gain PUs by killing units, another has a large starting army, another has low production but has very cheap & cost-effective units, auto-generate fodder units, etc.

Honestly, I'd worry less about balance initially and think about interesting/fun gameplay. Then once you have that flushed out just tweaking how strong different units are, objectives, territory values, etc shouldn't be too difficult.

PS. A map that I think achieved this to some degree is Grand War: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/852/the-grand-war

[alkexr]

@redrum

doing a combination where each faction has some sort of unique ability/objective/etc would be cool (rather than lots of the bland objectives). So maybe one of them has the ability that they gain PUs by killing units, another has a large starting army, another has low production but has very cheap & cost-effective units, etc.

I'm pretty sure it's Fallen Empire you are talking about

[redrum]

@alkexr Yeah, I do like a lot of your ideas for Fallen Empire. I think some of those as well as some from maps like Grand War, Civil War, Total World War, etc could help remove the objectives that LME has now.

[Hepps]

Might be kinda cool to play up some of the neutral territories a little more. Making your unique units more purposeful beyond their movement or combat abilities.

Maybe make some of them triggered to switch sides if a certain unit enters... like say as some general off-the-cuff examples ....

Say Isengard gets a Wizard to the territory of Trollshaws... then the Trolls join rather than having to be defeated.

Or if the High Elves get a wizard to the Old Forest territory then the Huorn will join rather than having to be defeated.

Or if the Woodland Realm has a Wizard in Rhosgobel it generate a War Elk or Rhosgobel rabbits.

These are just suggestions.... but I think finding some interesting in-game bonuses outside of the traditional N.O. structure might add some interesting options to the game.

[Hepps]

One more suggestion...

To make some more interest and give some flavour... and make the choice for Gondor less clear...

[alkexr]

@hepps I'm no fan of changing the map at this point.

[Hepps]

@alkexr Gotachya. Just thought it might be a nice balancing feature between the "if Osiliath falls the game is over for Godor" and a modified version where Gondror has to decide what to do depending on what is chosen to be done with Rohan and the battle for Isengard.

The idea being that both Rohan and Gondor have to choose between North & East without it being a "all or not" situation.

[alkexr]

@alkexr said in Large Middle Earth - official thread:

I'm no fan of changing the map at this point.

Yeah, that was two days ago. Today the entire East got reworked, along with several other map changes.

---

Question: should I merge Dale and Northmen into a new player called Northmen, with their capital being either Dale or Esgaroth?

From the perspective of the canon, the inhabitants of Dale (as well as Rhovanion) are techically Northmen. The current "Northmen" player represents the Eotheod (ancestors of the Rohirim, with their historical capital being Framsburg) and the kin of Beorn, likely of Northmen ancestry. As a united entity both the original and the proposed new "Northmen" player make about the same amount of (i.e. no) sense.

From the perspective of gameplay, this would give Good many strategic options, instead of "just don't lose your capital", which is currently more or less what they can make an admirable attempt of with their very limited amount of resources. In addition, having two players just slows the game down. They are also much closer to each other than the Dwarves or the High Elves are to themselves.

[alkexr]

Now the new map à la @Hepps ...

Before

After

Obviously the relief map got completely screwed up as a consequence, so temporarily it's advisable to turn map details off.

[Hepps]

@alkexr Thank god I hadn't finished the reliefs!

[Hepps]

@alkexr Interesting, merging the two is kind of a neat way to speed things up. How does it play out for turn order? Do they both go on Dale's turn? Or do they both go on North Men's turn?

[alkexr]

@hepps Turn order is a good question. The current turn order felt cool years ago, but it must be a nightmare for PBF/PBEM. It would be most time-efficient if first all Evil players finished their turn, and Good players came after that (or the other way around), but that would just create more possibility for surreal 4-player canopeners. So I suggest the compromise that 2-4 players of the same side take their turn after one another, but always players that are far away. With generally Evil players coming earlier (it feels fair to give Evil the initiative, and also consider that they're about to lose 80 production due to changes which they'll have to make up for). Something like

Saruman
Angmar
Mordor

Arnor
Gondor
Northmen
Lorien

Orcs
Rhun

High Elves
Woodland Realm

Harad
Dol Guldur

Freefolk
Dwarves
Rohan

Local turn order on several interesting fronts would be:

• Mordor > Gondor > Harad > Rohan
• Saruman > Gondor, Lorien > Orcs > Rohan
• Angmar > Northmen > Rhun > Woodland Realm > Dol Guldur > Dwarves

So the other side usually gets a chance to spoil plans involving multiple players.

Also with this turn order, you would only have to wait for your opponent 3 times a turn instead of 7.

[mattbarnes]

@alkexr the problem with the High Elf sea movement was with a Caravel.

[alkexr]

@mattbarnes Can you send a savegame? They are passable to me.

[Hepps]

@alkexr is this what you were thinking? Or leave as is?

[alkexr]

@hepps Unfortunately there is no excuse in the canon that would enable two territories for Gundabad. So instead of adding new a new territory let's just reshape Mount Gundabad and the surrounding territoeies. I've also broken up the mountain to the right into two territories, because it was getting too large. (And it was oddly strategic as well.)

[Hepps]

@alkexr I'm easy... I am just trying to keep the momentum as I have like 3 territories left to do.

If you have changes... speak now or forever hold your piece.

[alkexr]

@hepps You sure want to see the changes? I haven't decided yet, but there is the option to...

Before:

After:

The idea is to make Rohan more resistant and especially their capital Edoras less exposed. So that I won't have to hold myself back when I'm placing the initial armies for Saruman

But this would be a lot of work for you. Moving mountains and settlements and rivers and adding a marsh and a cave and stuff. More than the Rhun rework.

[Hepps]

@alkexr Your map your rules... just do what you need to do for the game.

The changes are easily made so long as they don't come after I am done.

[alkexr]

@hepps

Your map your rules...

It's your work and your time. But do it, then, lest I regret not having done it.

Territory effects in purple. The very rough course of rivers in blue. Nothing outside the red line. The settlement "Erech" got moved to the south to give space for the fort of Dunharrow (hills+settlement) and the Glittering caves (cave+settlement).

One last tiny change for a friend of mine who wanted a strategic option for Harad, namely to enter Mordor from the far east (Mordor is open from that side off-map). So I'll just make the mountain shorter to allow a territory connection.

Before:

After:

No more map changes. But alas, the hour has grown late. Continuing work tomorrow.