Red Sun Over China - Possible Bugs (RESOLVED)

[erik542]

@cernel said in Red Sun Over China - possible bugs:

@redrum If there is the intention to redraw the rail connections based primarily on historicity, I may provide a draft (tho there would still be the other main issue of no Muslims and Lanchow and Sian Communist, if it is an issue, as I'm almost sure it is).

I remember when I played with Puli long ago, he said that the railroads as is are historical.

[Cernel]

@erik542 They are at least mostly historical, especially in the east, and maybe just what I have is not correct, also since I have WW2, tho I would very surprised if anything was changed between that and 1937.
Even if useless, I guess I should just make a simple draft based on my sources (not necessarily correct; I wasn't there at the time), in case pulicat comes back anytime and want to confront.

[Hepps]

@redrum The design sounds promising...

• Seems like the added flexibility and draw-backs to the proposed system would be in-line with the spirit of the current system.

• You can leave the rail (unit) system as indestructible so that blocking rail lines would only prevent odd maneuvers created by the current system.

• Would REALLY streamline the current station system.

• Would clean up the movement phase considerably.

[redrum]

@wirkey @erik542 Any idea if there was supposed to be a decrease in British income until Phase II is activated? There are triggers in the XML:

    <!-- Functional NOs -->
    <!-- UK Cap -->
    <attachment name="objectiveAttachment101" attachTo="British" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="objectiveValue" value="-27"/>
      <option name="alliedExclusionTerritories" value="Phase II" count="1"/>
    </attachment>
    <attachment name="objectiveAttachment101" attachTo="British" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="objectiveValue" value="-1"/>
      <option name="alliedOwnershipTerritories" value="Myitkyina" count="1"/>
    </attachment>

[Cernel]

So, this is what I have, trying to adapt it to the map design and limited only to what is in China, Korea and north of Hanoi (Indo-China). Be warned that I just did it, and the maps (original 1940 to 1945) I used are quite busy, thus I could have easily missed something or got something wrong. The red lines are what I have, drawn over the referring map, not including what is given under construction:

I'm not saying that this is all correct, but mainly the matter is that I'm lacking all the railways in Chungking, Kweiyang, Kunming and Nanning, except only the line from Kunming to French Indo-China, and I've only a short railway going west of Sian, that is not reaching Lanchow, and nothing at all going south to Chungking. So all this would need research to determine if most of the western part of the railways this map shows were actually there (could be my sources are wrong/outdated/incomplete).

Searching in internet briefly, I've not been able to find any original period maps showing the railways, or anything looking original, exhaustive and reliable (if someone wants to try searching for it).

[Cernel]

@cernel Minor note, on my atlas the Shanghai - Changsha railway connects not to Changsha, but rather to Pinghsiang, then linking to the railway between Changsha and Canton, about 40 km south of Changsha, but I guess the Changsha circle represents a proportionate territory around it, not the city only (if it is the city only, then that red line should end in the Siangtan territory).
Generally, in the dubious cases, I've kept the option corresponding to the map.

[wirkey]

@redrum don't think so

[redrum]

@wirkey @erik542 It appears the UK having less income until they are at war with the Axis is intended based on the conversation in the old thread: http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Red-Sun-Over-China-td4466393i40.html

[erik542]

@redrum

That is correct that UK is intended to have less income at the start to make sure they don't rolfstomp thailand.

[Cernel]

Historically, Thailand or Britain never attacked each other in WW2 (they also had a non aggression pact, and Thailand sought guarantees from Britain against the Japanese), until after Thailand was invaded by Japan and forced to sign an armistice; only after Thailand was effectively a Japanese occupied territory, the, at this point puppet, government of Thailand declared on the Allies.

[erik542]

A skim through the Wiki is telling me that Thailand initially sought Japanese aid in fighting France to reclaim some territory in 10-1940 which is quite a bit before than the Japanese invasion in 12-1941. Thailand did declare war on the UK in Jan 1942 and there was fighting over Burma. While the time frame is out of sync with the rest of the map, there was no politics option back in the day to better simulate the delayed entry into the war.

[Cernel]

@erik542 Yeah the war between Thailand and Indochina is missing too, but that one was almost a farce looking at casualties (a few hundred), so I think it is better not being represented.

[Cernel]

@erik542 To be clear, attacking France at that point didn't mean attacking the Allies, as France (Vichy based) was not anymore in any anti-Axis alliance (and Britain was attacking France too, at that point).

[erik542]

@cernel

Well looking at the game notes, the Thai-UK NAP is represented by "3) British are not allowed to fight Axis for the first 3 rounds (Phase I), unless any Axis country attacks it first."

[Hepps]

Here is a little prototype for your new design.

[Hepps]

Decorations...

[redrum]

Updated screenshot:

[redrum]

Latest changes: https://github.com/triplea-maps/red_sun_over_china/pull/9

Changes

• Reworked trains to be land transports and removed all the old sea rail territories
• Added politics and triggers to remove phase I -> II function
• Fixed NOs

Everything seems to work well except trains can't actually transport other units yet as the engine doesn't handle land transports with canals.

[Hepps]

@redrum If only there were someone with the skills and abilities to make that happen.

[mattbarnes]

Hey guys, esp Redrum, that's amazing progress. Well done!

Most of the modding is over my head but do shout if I can help with anything. I just saw one early request to do some testing, but I've not been on the site since then and maybe the moment has passed?

I note the reference back to the 2010 dialogue, eg relating to the UK -27 Obj etc. But that seemed to be about v2.1 and v2.2, whereas the current is v2.3. I think therefore that the 2010 dialogue was probably superseded. I would assume that all Objs in v2.3 are as Pulicat intended, perhaps after he did further playtesting. Therefore I would amend the Notes to match the code not vice versa, with the exception of the UK -27 which I think may be a coding legacy, as I didn't see it coming into play and it makes the UK too weak. (What's the complete trigger condition?)

What's interesting about the dialogue is that Pulicat was really keen for the railways to be crucial to Japanese logistics (eg bringing-up extra fodder infantry). That doesn't seem to happen in the games I've been playing (albeit just a couple) as it's just so much more efficient to use mobile infantry. The foot infantry are just too slow reaching the front line, even after a train ride. Incidentally, I'm unclear what Pulicat's intentions were about the China factories as the dialogue said he deleted them to force the Japanese to use the railways, whereas the Notes indicate that these factories are present, damaged and repairable. If the latter in the case then would a player use the railways much?