Red Sun Over China - Possible Bugs (RESOLVED)
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@mattbarnes Yeah, its hard to tell as XML has one thing, notes have another, and what actually happens in the game due to some errors in the XML is another. I've mostly gone on the XML being what was intended and the UK -27 was still in the XML in 2.3 (I think either an engine changed made it not function or it never functioned correctly) so I fixed it and just made it -25 so its a more even number.
I think the map has a ways to go for balancing so just need to start somewhere then we can adjust things.
After I make the engine enhancement then it'll be ready to start playing some games to test balance and find any remaining bugs.
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Alright, the engine change PR is up now: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/3894
Everything should be working once that is merged into the pre-release.
I ended up doing trains closer to the original implementation and sticking to the station model rather than something closer to TWW. Trains are now land transports which can only move to territories with stations. Moving between stations requires owning the necessary land territories that the rail moves through.
From an XML standpoint, this is achieved through the following:
- Trains are land transports, have 2 moves, can be captured, and only move during non-combat move (will need to balance test to decide if they should be captured or destroyed and whether they can be SBR)
- Trains require stations to move (just like trains require rail in TWW) and there are invisible station units in the necessary territories
- There are land canals that replaced the old sea canals between stations which require the necessary land territories between stations to be owned
- There are a second set of land canals between stations that only allow trains to use the station to station connect
- Property "Control All Canals Between Territories To Pass" is set to true so that both canals must be checked to pass through
Train Moving a Few Units Through 2 Stations
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PR is merged so if you download the latest map and the pre-release, you should be able to test it out: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases/tag/1.9.0.0.11597
This should be ready for the balance phase now, please let me know if you are interested in a PBF/PBEM game.
I'm still going to work on cleaning up the notes and a few other visual enhancements but those shouldn't impact gameplay/balance.
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@redrum said in Red Sun Over China - possible bugs:
Property "Control All Canals Between Territories To Pass" is set to true so that both canals must be checked to pass through
Haha, I was right someone would have had a use for that!
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@redrum I think trains should use more movement if there are more territories in between of the stations.
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@redrum Just on that UK adjustment, I think the -27 (rather than -25) was already "round" because I think it was originally intended to cut the UK from 47 to 20. Presumably after turn 3, the UK gets a huge boost because they then become 47+30 (or +40), ie a jump from 20 to 77. That would be interesting. When Axis first take their gloves off, the UK will be very weak and on the back foot, whereas with 47 per turn they could build up enough forces to influence the game as soon as they enter. Perhaps that will make the game more realistic than I've found it to date because Axis ought to push UK back to the Indian border. BUT is this Obj actually triggering or was there a fault with that bit of code? I don't think the deduction was happening in the game I played.
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@cernel Regarding the contemporary train lines, I think your map is correct but I wonder if Pulicat was trying to include some of the major highways too, representing them with trains even though they were actually roads? You'll see that many of the routes in the game appear on this map:
www.emersonkent.com\map_archive/china_1937.htm -
@redrum A final request: please can you rename the map Red Star Over China (to match the eponymous book and to make reference to the communists who were the topic of that book), or else Rising Sun Over China (to represent the Japanese invasion)?
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@mattbarnes If that is what pulicat was thinking, I definitely wouldn't do that. Better not representing highways than merging them with railroads.
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@mattbarnes The objective wasn't firing as it had the same name as another UK objective in the XML (99% sure it was just an XML mistake). If you capture Myitkyina with UK then you'll see the second objective of -1 firing (this objective had the same name so was overriding the -27 one). And yeah, it appears he was trying to cap UK production before phase II to 20 but I think its better to instead just give them -25 and allow them to try to capture a few of the neutrals to get a little more.
I think the idea is to prevent UK from building up too much in the first couple of turns so they don't immediately crush Thailand when war is declared.
For now, I'm not planning to change the name but we'll see.
@Cernel I think Pulicat probably made them 80% historical but then made some adjustments for gameplay purposes. Looking at the map, Chungking really needs to be connected especially since its the only Nationalist factory that isn't damaged at the start. For now, I'm not planning to change any of the rail connections as I want to see how it plays first.
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Another quick thought: there is a rule "if Axis attacks UK in first 3 rounds then Allies enter the war" but what if UK moves HK troops into Nationalist territory and are attacked there? If possible, I would make a rule "UK cannot enter Nationalist territory before Allies enter the war" as such a step in real-life would be seen to be aggressive against Japan.
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@redrum What do you think the purpose of the UK Obj for Myitkyina was? Maybe it's designed to offset the PUV gain from taking it, making it more attractive for the Nationalists to occupy the Burma Road instead of the UK doing so?
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@mattbarnes That's a good question. So far I only prevented UK and Axis from attacking each other til war is declared. UK right now is free to walk units into allied territories but they won't fight or prevent Japan from taking those territories until war is declared. Could instead make UK neutral with the other allies and prevent them walking into Allied territory until war is declared. I'm open to either though outside of Hong Kong it probably doesn't matter very much.
The point of the Myitkyina objective was just to keep UK production to 20 if they captured that and in reality if Pulicat wanted the 20 cap then he probably should have it on all the neutral territories near India. It was also supposed to only work until Phase II but that portion didn't work so it was forever. The way UK is setup, it seems that Pulicat wanted them to try to open the Burma Road.
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Another question: is the kamikaze plane rule favoured? It seems to be set as default but that does mean that either side can do mega long distance attacks on enemy ships.
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@mattbarnes It appears that is the current default setting though generally, I don't think its probably a good idea especially with air units having such long ranges. I think I'm going to not make that the default to start and would rather consider limited kamikaze attacks with either only certain units or needing tokens.
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@redrum now that yous brought it up, I don't think I've ever seen the AI use kamikaze attacks ever ... on the WWIIClassic map at least. I have the kamikaze attack box checked on but have never ever seen the AI do a kamikaze attack but maybe I've never been in a situation where the AI thought it was a good idea. I still think the option is cool just for historical sake
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@captain-crunch Yeah, the AI doesn't support kamikaze attacks yet.
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@redrum oohhhhhh, I did not know!
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Now that all the bugs have been addressed and a few things revamped, the initial v3.0.0 release is now available and official map thread: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/986/red-sun-over-china-rsoc-official-thread.
Please move balance discussion and questions to official thread.
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@redrum Maybe we should adopt the practice of locking the bug reports that have been solved or declared invalid or moved elsewhere? Otherwise I think people will think they are supposed to post any of this map bugs they might find in here.
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