AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)

[Panther]

@bayder The way TripleA Revised OOB fly-over AA-fire is coded at the moment gives the player the opportunity to ignore the principle of "all combat movement takes place at the same time" allowing to discard and/or change whatever movement plans depending on the result of AA fire. I can't see any justification for this - at least not in the rulebook.

Of course you can say TripleA Revised OOB fly-over-AA fire is coded fine: But only as long as the players don't abuse it to alter originally intended Combat Moves depending on AA-fire results. Maybe that has never happened.

[bayder]

@Panther I guess it depends on how you interpret this line from page 12: "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing anantiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down." Is this an exception to the "all combat movement takes place at the same time" principle? What confuses this to me is that the rulebook states AA fire happens in the Combat Move phase. If the expectation was to wait until all units are plotted out, then why not conduct the AA fire in Conduct Combat?

Of course I'm sure the community would be fine with whatever definitive ruling comes out...as long as it is from an A&A authority, and not just another interpretation/opinion that's not necessarily better than the current. I'm not trying to be a contrarian, just wanting to make sure we just don't jump from interpretation to interpretation (at a big time expense of Devs as this seems complicated to code/change).

[Panther]

@bayder Actually I appreciate the discussion. I just try to understand your interpretation. Please help me again, as I intend to contact Krieghund on this issue.

What we have from the rulebook (Combat Move Rules) is:

• "In this phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile
  territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking
  units into the desired spaces on the game board; ... (page 11)"
• "All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time ... (page 11)"
• "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
• "Antiaircraft Guns: Antiaircraft guns can never move in this phase;
  they can make noncombat moves only. However, they can make a
  special attack in this phase only. Whenever an air unit moves into
  a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a
  chance to shoot it down.
  The air unit’s controller plots its path using the numbered punchout
  markers to indicate each space in which combat may occur (the first
  space is 1, the second 2, and so on). Whenever an air unit
  encounters enemy antiaircraft guns, resolve combat separately in
  each space along its path, starting with the first.
  Every time an antiaircraft gun in a territory is overflown by air units,
  it shoots once at each air unit that enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun
  per territory can fire, however.) If the gun misses, the air unit may
  continue its move.
  Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air
  units before moving onto the next. (pages 12/13)"

In this given context one could argue that the owner of the air units "plots its path" for every air unit that is supposed to move during Combat Move Phase, as all combat movement takes place at the same time. Once this has been done AA fire will be resolved group by group.

You argue that regardless of any context the sentence
"Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
could be interpreted as permission for combat moving units no longer moving at the same time, but giving them a certain moving order that allows to react on resulting AA fire. So some units move earlier, some move later... as you have to wait for some AA-fire-results to decide how to continue your combat moves?

Have I understood you correctly?

[bayder]

@Panther Your collection of the appropriate rules seems correct, but I'm not "arguing" anything. I do agree it is possible that the intent is to plot out all airplane moves first, having all combat moves finished, as you describe...then rolling AA group by group as you describe. It's just not clear. If that was the intent, then there is zero reason to say the AA shoot in Combat Move phase. It would all be done in Conduct Combat phase, as per LHTR...but for some reason the rulebook authors specifically indicate that AA fire in Combat Move, which leads me to believe there could be a different intent. Also the rule quote, "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down" is again very different that *plot out all air moves before rolling each AA step by step." I do not favor the existing rule over any others, I just don't want to jump to other interpretations without authoritative clarification, that's all. (And I appreciate the discussion also!)

[Panther]

@bayder OK, thank you very much. I think the summary of different interpretations and their background is fine, then. All in all I am really glad that all the discussed confusion here has been eliminated in LHTR and especially in later games.

[Cernel]

@panther I think that's pretty much the problem. When they came out with LHTR I've the feeling it was adopted the approach to tell people to go play LHTR if they wanted a clear ruleset, and Revised OOB was left kinda there on its own. But you are not selling LHTR to the TripleA Revised purists, so that's not a solution here.

[bayder]

@Cernel LHTR is a different game. I personally like some of the rule changes, but dislike more than I like. Other people have different views...although you don't see many people playing LHTR, and a lot playing OOB Revised, so take that for what you will. I do agree he spent time clarifying things that needed clarification in LHTR, which is good.

If we get a definitive answer on AA rules for OOB Revised, I would personally prefer to play with that ruleset, whatever it is (since I am a Revised purist, and want to play by the precise OOB intended rules).

[Cernel]

@bayder said in AA revised minor bug:

If that was the intent, then there is zero reason to say the AA shoot in Combat Move phase. It would all be done in Conduct Combat phase, as per LHTR...but for some reason the rulebook authors specifically indicate that AA fire in Combat Move, which leads me to believe there could be a different intent.

The reason may simply be that since AA shoot in Non Combat Move too, and those cannot be resolved in the Conduct Combat phase (that already happened) then it would be weird to move the Combat Move flyover there if anyways you, instead, cannot move the Non Combat Move ones as well. Of course, these are all speculations, and, honestly, I think the writer of the rulebook was just being confusing, like if it was a work in progress and he changed its mind while writing it, while revising it not very well, since anyways (as already quoted multiple times) in the units section for AA they do indeed say that: "Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun, the antiaircraft gun fires during the opening fire step of combat." (that is contradicted in other places, as we said). Anyways, in the moment that even krieghund says that the rulebooks has a lot of contradictions, it is really of little use to lose a lot of time on it; either somebody with authority can make an official clarification or the matter is destined to remain opinable.

[Cernel]

@bayder I agree Revised LHTR is a different game. For example (as I argued with @Deltium), if someone would make a ToC Revised LHTR I think it should be called number 1, instead of inserting it as one of the basic Revised ones. Anyways, they are both called Revised, so you cannot say that LHTR is not Revised; it is another Revised (like, for example, there are two "Spring 1942" games).

[Panther]

So here is the official clarification. Krieghund's answer is:

"If I am understanding all of this correctly, the question is ultimately whether or not all air movement is declared before any AA shots are resolved. The answer is "yes". This is indicated in the rule you quoted that states that movement must be plotted to indicate "each space in which combat may occur". The phrase "may occur" indicates that combat (AA fire) follows movement plotting.

Bayder argued that if this is true, then there is "zero reason" to move AA fire to the combat movement phase, but there is a reason. The reason is that AA fire also occurs in the noncombat movement phase in this game. If AA fire were resolved in the combat phase, it would be over before it could be applied to noncombat movement, so it is resolved in each movement phase.

I hope this helps."

[Cernel]

@panther Very cool @Panther, I knew you would have managed (that was exactly my belief as well, but I'm no krieghund, and I definitely believe that, while it might have been mostly indicated by the rules, they are really far from clear).

So, now all relevant is mostly clarified (and my memory was right yay...), and "only" need some developers to fix it. Summing up the bugs are:

What the engine does:
It resolves the AA flyovers immediately, to the extreme of letting you do, not only part of your moves, but even only part of a move for a same unit, see the AA flyovers, then use whatever movement you didn't yet use of any units, even comprising already partially moved ones.

For Revised LHTR:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them, together with the eventual AA fire in the attacked territory, during the first Opening Fire step of the Conduct Combat phase for the battle.

For Revised OOB:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them at the very end of the phase where they happened, after all your movement is done, mainly the Combat Move phase and the Non Combat Move phase (in TripleA terms, right after you click on Done to finalize all your movements). Theorically, it should also let you decide the order in which you resolve the various groups, but this may be relevant only for a Revised OOB based custom game, as in Revised OOB you don't have any advantage in choosing such order.

Remaining item for Revised OOB:
Since in Revised OOB (but not in Revised LHTR) the remaining movement of air that took part in a battle is done in the Conduct Combat phase (currently not supported by TripleA), not in the Non Combat Move phase, I'm not entirely sure when exactly that should be resolved (after the specific battle where these air units were involved or all together at the end of the Conduct Combat phase?).

Remaining item for Revised LHTR:
Since it was clarified that the way you assign AA casualties is by rolling separately all shots for fighters and for bombers, then taking out the resulting fighters and bombers casualties (that means you will take out the ones having the lower remaining movement first, instead of this being completely random, as in the case you would roll a dice for each plane singularly), what should, then, happen in the moment you may have to tally up the AA flyovers from the preceding Combat Move phase, and some of those shots were specifically assigned to aircrafts with a bigger remaining movement left? Must you, in this case, roll them before and separately from the AA shots you would be rolling for the AA that are in the embattled territory?

@Panther Please check if I said anything wrong and, if so, I will edit it (or feel free to edit my post yourself).

At the very least I hope this will end in some agreed and confirmed tickets being tracked in GitHub, and not being once again lost overtime... If not fixed, this matter should be fully and clearly documented and tracked forever, so that at any point in the future people may know the truth.

[bayder]

There is still zero reason for the rules to indicate that AA fire should occur in the Combat Move phase. The rules could easily state that AA fire occurs in Conduct Combat and Noncombat Move phases only. If this had been done, then there would be no questions regarding this rule.

That said, I don’t disagree with the intent to plot out all air moves before rolling any AA. As I have mentioned, I’m not arguing for or against any interpretation, just wanting to make sure it’s authoritative and correct.

For coding, I would suggest still including a warning message when plotting out an air move over AA so the player knows that later on the AA will fire on it.

bayder

P.S. Do we know how this rule is coded in any of the other major A&A platforms?

[Deltium]

As an active player over at Daak and AAMC, they use LHTR exclusively, so this issue is not present there at all. Personally, for my 2 cents in this very complicated and very nuanced discussion, LHTR clears up a LOT of ambiguity, and I prefer that over the standard OOB rules. However, it is clear that the standard rules are more appealing here at TripleA, so this discussion is worthwhile and noteworthy.

I've read the various posts here, and it may come down to us simply accepting the coding of the software currently (e.g. and codifying this as the official "Club Rule" in this regard), or if the members feel differently, to ask the developers to change the code, and state the rule in the interim. I would add, however, that the list of "to dos" for the developers is very deep, and there are far greater priorities, so I would not expect for this to be resolved quickly (or easily).

Either way, we should codify the rule in the Revised Tournament Rules section of our Forum to avoid any confusion on this.

Warm Regards, Deltium

[Cernel]

@deltium The matter is more like how many will remember this discussion 5 years from now? How many remember the discussions we had in WarClub in 2013 or before? So, if not fully solved, I wish to document it in a place to make sure that 20 years from now this matter won't be forgotten (mostly the fact that resolving AA flyovers immediately is a bug, as they should, on way or the other, solved after all movement is finalized).

[Panther]

IMHO the minimum this discussion with its clarifications has deserved is opening an issue at Github. In the past I have opened many rules-based issues there, all of them have been accepted, though not all of them have been as important as this one - so I don't see any reason why this topic should not be documented as a Github-issue.

I am happy to open it, as soon as I have found some time to check @Cernel 's above summary.

Of course opening an issue does not imply any priority when it comes to fixing it. This of course is a developer's decision.

[Cernel]

@panther I'll let you open them then. My suggestion is opening at least two issues, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, especially if there is the preference prioritizing correctly OOB only, and maybe more than that (since anyways there are a series of related details that are not supported either).

[bayder]

I forwarded this thread to our AH/WotC development contact (Rob Daviau) from back in 2002/2003 when we were playtesting Revised. He responded with: "Yeah, I can see the conundrum here. Unfortunately I’m not even close to being authoritative when answering a question like that. I see pros and cons to both ways to interpret it. If I talk to WotC soon I’ll ask if anyone there can answer it."

Unless Krieghund is an authoritative voice from AH/WotC, I don't personally feel we have a 100% answer on this yet. I agree it's likely the plotted movement path option is correct, but not with any degree of certainty.

bayder

[Panther]

@bayder said in AA revised minor bug:

Unless Krieghund is an authoritative voice from AH/WotC, ...

They should know him very well.
You don't know him? He is A&A developer and playtester, author of rulebooks and official FAQ and is in good contact with Larry Harris himself. He is active on axisandallies.org and www.harrisgamedesign.com and has appointed me (among a few others) to be his deputy in answering rules questions on a&a.org. I don't know anyone being more 100% than him.

[Panther]

@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:

@panther I'll let you open them then. My suggestion is opening at least two issues, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, especially if there is the preference prioritizing correctly OOB only, and maybe more than that (since anyways there are a series of related details that are not supported either).

I hope you don't feel passed over... I just wanted to express that I have no doubt that this is a valid Github-issue and would not hesitate to open it (or them). I am absolutely fine if you want to do it instead.

[bayder]

@panther Like I said, “Unless he’s an authoritative voice...”