Unit Option Can Submerge/Hide for Land Units (Partisan/Guerrilla/Spy/Diplomat/Munition)

redrum

@hepps Guess someone should tend to the gardens...

Hepps

@redrum Hopefully you know of a man with the shears enough to cut through the brambles.

redrum

@hepps Let's say I know a guy that definitely has the gardening skills... I hear he takes bribes...

Hepps

@redrum This sounds suspiciously like extortion.

redrum

@hepps More like a capitalistic way for him to appropriately prioritize which gardens to tend...

Hepps

@redrum Boy the gardener definitely let the vines grow thick in these gardens. The brambles have grown over everything.

Hepps

@hepps The only reason I followed up with a post in this thread was because I was reminded of it while revamping the sub/destroyer mechanics. Made me think it might be better to approach this idea with a broader scope in mind. As far as looking all the behaviors associated with this and how they are dealt with across all units (land/sea/air).

redrum

@hepps Open to discussion. I come back and think about this every so often. I'm waiting til we are working towards an incompatible release to address this as it'll probably break stuff. There are a bunch of issues with subs/destroyers and I think I'm going to break it into 3 parts:

Allowing the existing system to work for land/air units
Breaking isSub and isDestroyer into smaller attributes so more fine grained control can be achieved (canHide, firstStrike, canTarget, canBeTargetedBy, etc)
Rework some of the global XML sub properties so that they make more sense and for some be specified at the unit level: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/355/sub-xml-properties

Hepps

Cool. All basically what I was thinking of. Glad to see the gardener still looks in on the brabbles once in a while.

RogerCooper

Let's generalize it with the concept of a "stealth" property and "anti-stealth" property. Stealth units can retreat before a combat round unless an anti-stealth unit is present. "stealth" units can't be attacked unless an anti-stealth unit is present, but they can be fired on when the "stealth" unit is an attacker.

Possibly you would need "land-stealth" and "sea-stealth" properties. Your ASW aircraft would not help against guerillas.

Hepps

@rogercooper Yes the idea is to make a "stealth" type behavior attachable to units rather than as a all encompassing "Global Property".

The other half of the equation is also making the effects on a settable basis... ie. 1 destroyer does not affect the behavior of infinite subs.

RogerCooper

@hepps Limiting the effect of anti-stealth units can create problems. What if there is more than 1 type of sub?

Hepps

@rogercooper Well the concept I had initially proposed would allow the behavior to be settable like a support attachment. So you would have the ability to choose which units an ability can effect as well as the count.

Cernel

@hepps How about being also able to make them re-emerge, the same way, on any following combat rounds?

redrum

It begins... https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/4829

I'm focusing on first allowing the existing system to work for land/air units. You can now make land and air units have isSub and isDestroyer...

prastle

@redrum UG! Now he will get his Spies …. sigh wasn't it complex enough yet?

Hepps

@prastle Evil grin spreads over my face... all is coming into focus... dance puppets dance!

Cernel

@redrum I'm guessing the next and soon-to-come step is atomizing the "isSub" option into its 4 components (being able to submerge, being unblockable, denying casualties fireback, being unable to hit air units)?

Also, submarine land units with blitz will be now able to conquer territories with units in them and moving past?

redrum

@Cernel Correct though it might be a few more than 4 components. I'm still thinking a bit about the best way to break it up. Here are the separate functions I've thought of so far and open to input around names and how to break it up:

canHide - submerge
surpriseStrike - roll and take casualties before regular units
cantTarget (or canTarget) - can't target specific units like air units
cantBeTargetedBy (or canBeTargetedBy) - can't be targeted by specific units like air units
canMoveThroughEnemies - unblockable, Treat Hostile Territories as Friendly
doesntBlockEnemies - enemies can move through territories if only these types of units are present (would also need blitz for enemy land territories)

The intention is for land subs to work just as sea subs work for conquering convoy zones. I haven't tested that out so far but I'm guessing there is still some work to do around land sub movement. I've mostly focused on submerging and surprise strikes so far. Fairly certain 1-4 above should work properly for land subs but 5-6 I haven't tested much yet.

Cernel

@redrum Point 4 and 6 are not part of the basic "isSub" option. Those are additional v3 behaviours. So, if done all 6 as options, 1, 2, 3 and 5 would be effective as default (albeit 1 and 2 would be subjected to a number of different behaviours, depending on several properties (for example, with 1 you have the defensive retreat of v1.I/II, the additional defensive submerge ability of v1.III, the overriding offensive/defensive submerge after combat ability of v2, and the once again overriding offensive/defensive submerge before combat ability of v3)).

Also surpriseStrike could be split into surpriseOffence and surpriseDefence.

Also, a thing to keep in mind is that "isDestroyer" negates 1, 2, 5, as well as 4, if it applies (v3), but does not impact on 3, as well as 6, if it applies (v3).

So, I think it is really a very important thing to finally have these behaviours atomized (I recall veqryn had this plan too), also since by now, with all the various rulesets, a ridiculous number of different behaviours are all hard mashed into the "isSub" property, but the challenge would be to make it in a way to minimize confusion.

I think the atomization itself would help so much in making things way more clear, in the moment you have different options, while the "isSub" would just, then, say that it sets these 4~6 options all true.

On the namings, I really don't like "surpriseStrike", as it doesn't clearly hint about what is happening, and it seems like something that the opponent won't see it coming (that is never possible in TripleA, as nothing can be hidden). On this point, also "canHide" can be rather named "canDisengage", as that makes me think that you can hide submarines on the board, the opponent not knowing where they are (something that would be really cool).