Rules interpretation for placement Human vs AI

ubernaut

beelee

@wc_sumpton said:

So, the AI can purchase to place factories, but can still lose them because it can always try to purchase for captured territories even if they can't be placed there.

Not sure what all this means. Does new code need to be written for the AI not to do this ? Or does a new map property need to be added to the xml so one can turn it off depending on what game they're playing ?

I'm not real clear on all the different rulesets, as it's been so long since I've played anything other than G 40.

Anyway, I won't be of any help here but Good Luck for getting it corrected I will ping @panther for you, as he is a rules heavyweight.

VictoryFirst

@beelee

To sum up what WC is pointing out here - basically the AI is stupid here in that it tries to purchase units for territories it can't place in. And it is also unable to place unplaced factories because it tries to place them in territories with factories.

This needs to be fixed on the engine level. Two fixes are needed:

When making purchases, the AI simulates it turn first and then uses that information to make its purchase. However, it then correctly needs to identify that it cannot place in conquered territories because right now it thinks it can.
When the AI tries to place unplaced factories, it needs to use a different set of territories than those for regular units.

TheDog

Is this what should happen?
Components of this problem

rulesAttachment has placementCapturedTerritory" value="true"
This allows for the placement of units in the same turn as they were captured.

Order of delegates in xml speak
A&A style Purchase before Combat
Purchase> Combat move>Combat> Non-Combar move> Place> End Turn
or
New style Purchase after Combat
Combat move>Combat> Non-Combat move> Purchase> Place> End Turn

For Purchase before Combat
The AI tries to purchase what it thinks it needs based on its current TT and then Places them.
If PlacementCapturedTerritory=true then it should re-evaluate its Purchases/Place based on its new TT gains, yes? (As the gains might be better, closer to the enemy etc)

Purchase after Combat
If PlacementCapturedTerritory=true or false
The logic is simpler, the AI purchases what it can place, yes?

In the above mix, if the AI have been given units/factories from isAI/xml it should test for these first and not Purchase them,

Is the above what should happen?

Panther

@beelee said:

I will ping @panther for you, as he is a rules heavyweight.

I am happy to assist in case anything rules-related might be unclear.

wc_sumpton

@Panther

Why are unplaced construction units being placed only into production territories or adjacent sea zones owned since the start of turn?
Why when using rule "placementCapturedTerritory" are unplaced units still limited to production territories and their adjacent sea zones owned since the start of turn?
Why when using rule "placementAnyTerritory" are unplaced units now allowed to be placed in captured territories. This is also including those sea zones adjacent to captured production territories?
Why when using rule "placementAnySeaZone" along with "placementAnyTerritory" are sea unis still restricted to sea zones adjacent to production territories? And why is this still also including sea zones adjacent to captured production territories?
Why are the rules so different for the AI to place unplaced units?

Cheers...

Panther

@wc_sumpton

Lol, I should have specified that when I talk about the rules I exclusively mean the v1-v6 rulesets.

I can't know what the intentions or intended specific game-(house-) rules behind those "placementWhatever" rules might be, as these are usually used to override those core game-rules, as it seems.

wc_sumpton

@Panther

So in the PoS2 it states:
isConstruction values: allows the unit to be placed in territories that don't contain factories.

But because this is not a rule, requiring the AI to place isConstruction units in territories with factories is not a bug.

There you have it @thedog. You can only give Human players factories with triggers but you can't give them to AI players.

Cheers...

TheDog

@wc_sumpton said:

You can only give Human players factories with triggers but you can't give them to AI players.

Yes, its wrong, TripleA should allow the AI to place Factories, because the Player can.

@wc_sumpton
Is this a question because the Devs want confirmation that, the AI should be allowed to place Factories like a human player?

wc_sumpton

@TheDog

Let me see if I can explain things better. For reference I'll be looking at the "Axis & Allies Anniversary Edition" rule book. Page 10

*The U.S. player places the new Chinese units at the same time that the new U.S. units are placed. They may be placed on
any Chinese-controlled territories, however those units cannot be placed on any territory that already contains three or
more units. *

To be rule complaint "World War II v3 1941" has:

<attachment name="rulesAttachment" attachTo="Chinese" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
   <option name="movementRestrictionTerritories" value="Chinghai:Ningxia:Sikang:Yunnan:Hupeh:Fukien:Suiyuan:Manchuria:Kiangsu:Kwangtung"/>
   <option name="movementRestrictionType" value="allowed"/>
   <option name="productionPerXTerritories" value="2"/>
   <option name="placementAnyTerritory" value="true"/>
   <option name="placementCapturedTerritory" value="true"/>
   <option name="placementPerTerritory" value="3"/>
</attachment>

"placementAnyTerritory" allows a player to place any non-isSea unit into any land territory that was owned at the start of the players turn (Human player only not AI players). can you place in any LAND territory you owned at the beginning of the turn? (Does not include newly captured territories for Human players only.)
"placementCapturedTerritory" allows a Human player only, not used by the AI player to place these units because "placementAnyTerritory" assumes placement into newly captured territories as a default, to place units into newly captured territories, but still follows production rules. can you place in territory you captured this turn?
Even though these are handled/enforced differently they are both considered rule complaint and so it will not be changed.
And don't get started on "placementAnySeaZone" (For Human player only) can you place in any SEA territory beside a LAND territory you owned at the beginning of the turn? But because there is no rule for placement of sea units without production, the AI will not be changed this.
One would think that the same rules would apply to the placement of a purchased factory would apply to the placement of a given factory. They do not. And because there are no rules that govern the placement of a given factory do not expect this to change ant time soon.

Cheers...

wc_sumpton

@thedog

I am very sorry for my above post. I do think that you have a legitimate bug/issue. I have found the cause to your problem (review issues #14447 and #14457). While investigating this issue I uncovered other problems with how the AI handles the placement of units. To me these fixes seemed simple, so I submit a PR to make those changes. A test was created to check the output of the file I wanted to change.
The file passed all the tests. I took issue with the test file because it failed to test the broken functionality of file. Some changes were made to the test but none of the testing covered any of the issues which I raised. So again, I took issue with the test.
Now I'm being told to find the rules.
When a Human places an isConstruction unit, either given or purchased, there are certain rules the player follows. These are the same rules the AI player follows when placing a purchased isConstruction unit. But the rules change for the AI player when placing a given isConstruction unit. Why? So now I have to find a rule that governs the placement of a given unit because it's not the same as placing a purchased one.
A human player as to follow certain guidelines with respect to the use of "placementAnyTerritory", "placementAnySeaZone" or "placementCapturedTerritory" but the AI does not have to follow the same guidelines unless there is a rule?

Why are there different sets of rules for placement given that a player is Human vs AI?

Again, sorry for the rant. The fixes are easy. But without a rule they will not be made.

Cheers...