Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread
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@Frostion
Thinking more about Spells, would this work?Make all hero transports carrying capacity 4, so NOT infantry.
Reduce spells to range 1 and can be carried by transport.
So air transport can carry a Hero +3 other "things", including spells.As an aside, all non transport ships could have a carrying capacity 4, so a hero can travel by sea.
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@Frostion & Devs
Although Im playing as Dwarves, checkout the attached file, AI standoff at Orgrimmar. It looks like the AI cannot decode a path? Maybe the AI thinks the air bridge is usable by land units?XP
When a hero dies can the XP required to resurrect be based on say the current turn x 10 XP, so if its turn 11 and a hero dies, they will have to pay 110 XP to be resurrected.Why, sometime I suicide my hero to get back to a Factory to defend it, bargain for 10XP.Dwarf
Gunship is poor value compared to Flying Machine. The Gunship should be cheaper.Mortars needing Gold are spammed and wood is used for Ships.
So Artillery tends not to be bought by Dwarves.Others
Dryads cannot Blitz, should they be able too? -
@Frostion
Origins for AI
Can you hardcode each race's 4 origin choices, yes they would always be the same, but at least they would be used? Unless you can randomly pick them, then I would hardcode 2 and random pick 2.Factories/Barracks
When I want Factories in an area I spread the Guard Towers around in a few Territories as its cheaper to do so. Perhaps;
Guard Towers cost 30pu 30gold
Fort cost 30pu 25gold
Garrison cost 30pu 20gold
Castle cost 30pu 15gold
This way its cheaper to have addons , rather than spread Guard Towers around?Humans
Arthur, has Def 5, a Power of 5, a higher TUV than other heroes, he needs nerfing, or maybe just start with 4 Footmen to rebalance this?
-Start with a Harbour, a bonus.
-Are not threatened by the enemy, therefore can easily expand.
-They are the easiest to play and be almost anywhere with the Teleporting Gates. -
Artillery
If I'm reading the xml file correctly there is not much difference between all the Artillery, take a Catapult and plus and minus the stats by 1.I would like to see the following;
-Ballista, range 1, cannot shoot over air-bridges as its direct fire, but its very good v AA, so better than now, cannot perform a raid. Overall this should make it cheaper.
-Catapult, as now, but worse v AA and has a lower Defence.
-Trebuchet, as now, but even worse v AA and has a lower Defence. Movement 0, can be made anywhere.Battle Calculator
In the Dwarf list the Undeads Southshore Port appears, it should be in the Undead list.Economic Victory
I would go for 2/3 total PU, so about 450PU. 400 might be too easy to achieve.Thanks for producing this game!
I will await eagerly for an update. -
Suggested starting forces for all.
Reduce the number of Infantry units by 2.
Add 1 Workboat
Add 1 Cavalry
These changes should speed up the initial exploring game play, so that players can get into the meat of the game sooner.
It also adds decision points for the player, how best to use the Cavalry and the Workboat must dodge the Pirates to keep alive.Elementals & Banshees
Could have a Transport Cost of 99, ie they cannot be Transported.
However they could be Summoned/Placed anywhere, or limited to being placed with Heroes/Casters with Magic Attacks. -
@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:
Bowmen and Crossbowmen now cost 5 Food, not 10 Food.
Having played with the Battle Calculator more and played a few games, I think the Bowmen and Crossbowmen are not that bad compared to Footmen, so dont drop the Food to 5, Im thinking more of to 8.
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@All ... Here are the changes made for v0.1.3. soon updateable/downloadable via the map downloader:
• Added more explanation during intro, on how to place Hero Origin Skills.
• Players now start with 1 Cavalry + 3 Infantry, not 5 Infantry.
• Sian-tsu's Restoring-Rain no longer heals Sian-tsu +2 HP, it only heals the other Horde Heroes with her.
• Food availability on the map has been reduced a bit.
• Gold availability on the map has been reduced a tiny bit.
• There are now 10+ Supply-Chests on the map for an early game resource boost. (5 PUs / 5 Gold / 5 Food / 5 Wood / 5 Oil)
• Dryads now have a silver horseshoe icon, just like the Knights, as they are “special” variations of Cavalry (The Dryads cannot blitz as normal Cavalry can).
• Stormwind-Port no longer has a golden dot as it does not add any extra protection or production to Stormwind Territory.
• Sevis tooltip spelling error fix (“place by Sevisat at factory”).
• Economic victory set at 450 PUs.
• Normal victory set at 6 Capitals.
• All spells now only have Movement 1, not Movement 4. (Unfortunately, spells can no longer be transported into battle further away. Any XML-help to fix this would be appreciated! I have not yet figured out a system where spells work as they do now + follow the Hero 1-4 moves. Note that spells are currently Air-units, so that they may not capture land territories by their own.)
• All spells can now hit sea units.
• Gryphon-Transport is now 3Att/3Def, not 2Att/2Def.
• The Gyrocopter no longer has bombing capability.
• Mortar, Fire-Thrower and Scorpid stats changed a bit.
• All buildable Factory upgrades now cost less than their larger upgrades (So that one large factory, capable of building 2 units, is cheaper than a two small factories, capable of building 1 unit each).
• Cavalry now cost more food. Raised from 10 to 15 Food.
• Skeletons now also cost 5 PUs, besides 5 Mana.
• Spider-Tank can now traverse mountains and rivers (Airways) as the only Land Unit.
• Fire-Canoe now cost 20 PUs, not 24 PUs.
• Various minor cost changes and other changes.Bombing and Factory HP system redone/changes:
• All Capitals will now be set on fire when lost to the enemy. They will need to be repaired before any units may be built there by the conqueror.
o Now a Factory with 1 golden dot has 1 HP and a unit with a bombing value of 0-1 will deal 0-1 damage, a unit with bombing value of 0-2 will deal 0-2 damage, etc.
o Before, all factories had 5-25 HP / 1 HP cost 5 PUs to repair / Factories could produce as long as 1-5 HP was undamaged.
o Now, all factories have 1-5 HP / 1 HP cost 25 PUs to repair / Factories can produce 1 unit per 1 undamaged HP. Overall, Factories are now more easily destroyed/disabled, but there is now a risc of a bombardment shot not doing any damage at all.New bombingMaxDieSides unit stats:
Lightning-Spell__0-1__________(Only Orc Hero)
Dynamite________0-1__________(Only 1 Hero on map)
Fire-Thrower_____0-1__________(Undead special unit)
Gunship__________0-1__________(Dwarven special air unit)
Mortar___________0-1___________(Dwarven special art. unit)
Ballista___________0-2
Catapult__________0-2
Trebuchet_________0-2
Bombard__________0-3__________(Only 1 unit on map)@TheDog
Thanks for all your input! I have addressed a lot of what you have mentioned. But furthermore I would like to comment on some of the stuff that is not directly changed, or stuff that cannot work like you imagine it to. For your information, there are many ideas (some I see we share) that I have not, from start, been able to implement as I wanted. There are some engine limitations that we are working within.Elementals & Banshees: These cannot just be placed/summoned anywhere the Hero might be. Just like I have not been able to make Skeletons be created anywhere the Hero might be. This is because, it might work “anywhere” within player-owned territories, like the homelands of the player. But it does not work when the Hero is on allied soil, as only the owner of a territory may build in Factories here. So this limits possibilities.
Hero vs Hero balance and streghths: This is a tough one! One thing is clear, we cannot just take the 8 starting level 1 Heroes and have them made “equally strong”. And the skills they get are very different. Some are very self empowering, while others are supporting others. Some are resource generation while others are pets or summoned creatures. I have tried to balance out the final outcome of level 8 players, but they are still very different and not all are equal in 1 on 1 combat. I think the map has to be played many many times before we really see if adjustments are needed. But you are doing your part I see
I hope you will test out the new simplified siege system:
• Is it comprehensible?
• Is there really a choice between bombarding the enemy factory OR choosing to go head on, taking the extra casualties?As you have noticed: “AI cannot decode a path? Maybe the AI thinks the air bridge is usable by land units?” The AI has issues with the Airways, and sometimes AI stacks up units as it thinks it can pass. This makes especially The Horde kind of passive and sitting at their capitals. (@Devs ... HELP!
) Maybe you would like to run a game where you control all Human Horde vs all AI Alliance? (If so you could run the Alliance turn 1, 5, 10 etc. so that they may purchase Origins, Veterans and Elites) -
Well !!!
I thought I had a few days off, :astonished_face: that was a fast update.It will take a few days to take it all in.
The Devs have made a few AI changes, Im hoping the Horde AI plays a bit better now.
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@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:
(Unfortunately, spells can no longer be transported into battle further away. Any XML-help to fix this would be appreciated! I have not yet figured out a system where spells work as they do now + follow the Hero 1-4 moves. Note that spells are currently Air-units, so that they may not capture land territories by their own.)**
If the program would work correctly, as I understand it, you could assure this for any "suicide" unit by just making the unit an infrastructure.
This way, you could send any suicide infrastructure in battle alone or with one or more other units, thus keeping the current behaviour, while making them unable to conquer any territories.
I know that the program would cause the infrastructure to be captured before any battle if alone and would also sometimes allow infrastructures alone to conquer undefended territories, but both these behaviours are wrong.
If spells are suicide and infrastructures, it is a wrong behaviour of the program that it cannot attack alone, as the step when the infrastructure would be captured is after every step in which it may make any fire and also after the step in which it would be removed as suicide.
If spells are infrastructures, it is a wrong (ad inconsistent) behaviour of the program that non-blitzing infrastructures can capture empty territories alone. Since the "combat" infrastructure behaviour captures the pre-v5 aaGun behaviour, such a unit is removed from the battle before reaching the step for capturing the territory, so, obviously, cannot do such a thing. What else should happen, however, is opinionable.
I'm just saying that, if infrastructures working correctly would solve your problem, instead of trying to work around it, I guess you can ask the developers to fix the issues. This would also fix other games like D1914NML, where the "gas" should be able to attack alone (under my interpretation of the rules).
CC. @Panther for what recalls the basic rules sets.
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I had my worst game yet, actually it was my best, random placement seemed against me, some of my attacks failed when I thought I should have won, The Pirates kept avoiding me and would not die, the Orcs did 2 sneak attacks, I was up against it, it was fab. I did not get a chance to use siege a capital, in fact I did not get close.
Starting Point
No races had Origins, this makes it fair for all.
Resource Modifiers - NONE, yes none
Played as Gnomes for all turns.
Played all races at turns 7, 15, 21 to spend XP, Veteran and Elite points, and tried to steer the AI into moving units.AI
The Undead in the Undercity on turns 15 and 21 I tried to move them left and then right of the Undercity the AI just moved them back to the Undercity on the following turns. So the AI is not fixed.Taureans in Thunder Bluff have 26 units on turn 26, why?
The Orc AI played a blinder of a game, 2 sneak attacks on the Gnomes, I was wrong footed twice, Look how badly defended Orgrimmar is, just like a player would leave it.
All Bowmen and Crossbowmen Suggest Food 9, so they dont compete with Foot who also need 10 food.
Human Priests AI does not produce them even though they have 150 Mana, maybe they cost too much PU ?
Gnome Sub is fantastic for the gold cost, maybe it should cost more?
Taurean
Hero does not have Mount at level 5, "All Heroes receive a 2 Movement Mount at level 5." It has a shape change that can move 3 and an Owl at a higher level.Kodo Tower is too expensive 120pu, I know it moves 2 and has 2HP, the Dwarf Gunship has a great stat line and moves 4. I would lower its stats to get lower pu cost.
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Started as Trolls, but by turn 5, the Undead AI had stacked too many units at the capital, so I took over and played both Undead & Trolls.
Starting Point
Same as the first game, no Origins and no Race Modifiers.Played all races at turns 8, 15.AI
The Air Bridge issue needs to be fixed, look at the Taureans crowding up against their homeland rim.Treasure (Items)
-Nautical-Charts does not give +2 movement (or does it if the Hero is on a Transport?)-Oh my! Just had Long-Range-Artillery for the first time, its a bit good. Maybe make 3 of them, one for each of the main types of artillery.
Winning Conditions
450 Pu to Alliance - I did not see a message to the effect, but I was playing Horde.
6 Capitals - Get a message, with an option to continue.Air Forces
Move 3
Treasure Air-Balloon Tran=3Move 4
Human Airship Tran=5, could be Move 3
Dwarves Flying-Machine Tran=0
Dwarves Gunship Tran=0
Gnomes Gyrocopter Tran=0
Night-Elves Hippogryph Tran=2, could be Move 3
Orc Wind-Hexer Tran=0
Orc Zeppelin Tran=5, could be Move 3
Undead Gargoyles Tran=0
Taurean None
Trolls None
Treasure Gryphon-Transport Tran=2, could be Move 3Move 4 is way too good for air Transports, it almost makes Ship transports redundant, they are very versatile and fast and their cargo can capture territory. So I'm thinking all air transports should have a Move of 3?
Artillery
Pre cannon age, artillery tended to be built on the site of the siege.
I'm going to repeat my hope that Trebuchets can be built in a territory that you own and cannot move, so can be placed without a Factory.
Catapults can be built in any territory that you own and can move 1, and can be placed without a Factory.This gives them a distinction, as of now they are too similar.My current thinking is all artillery is too good, but I have only really used it in one game, so Im thinking they should have a PU increase. But maybe all artillery should have Defence 3, then cavalry have a chance to Blitz attack it?
Ships
I dont think ships have an anti air defence, they should, it seems too easy to take out shipping by air, just put 3 flyers on one Warship, it tends to die.Losing a Capital
This is a great change and expensive to rebuild.
In short dont lose your capital.Gnome Spider-Tank, shiney, a great little climber (forgot to mention it the previous game)
Trolls Fire Canoe - I tried to use them, the AI just danced around them with their 2 movement ships, the Fire Canoe is just not viable with movement of 1.- could make them move 2 and true suicide, ie explode on contact.
Trolls Dire Troll - gold cost needs to be dearer, its too cheap
Air Force, Trolls and Taureans dont have an air force, this is a big disadvantage, as air power is very versatile and can quickly tip a fight in your favour, because of move 4.
Undead
The AI will not place Skeletons that have already been over bought but not placed, even though the hero and factory are present.Sorcerer - Replace Gold cost with Mana (only because they are casters)
Gargoyle - Replace Mana cost with Gold
Sorcerer 35 60 v Banshee 35 50 cost - Banshee appears to have a better stat line yet are cheaper than Sorcerer?
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Me and @SilverBullet tried to play this in lobby but gave up after more than 5 minutes stuck on launching screen. I was hosting and no error.
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@TheDog Nice feedback. I will soon study it thoroughly and respond!
@Cernel because the AI has some inbuilt "pauses" that cannot just be bypassed by the map/XML, the map start-up is long, unless you manually set the AI pause duration to 0. This is also stated in the pop-up during map start-up. I don't know if this AI pause duration can be done when you start up a lobby game?
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@Frostion As I said, it was more than 5 minutes with no game progressing. Have you tried to play the game online with another user? If not, I suggest you try to. You don't need to join the lobby if the other user joins your host by direct connection. I wonder if this game can be played online at all.
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@Cernel No I haven’t played it online or LAN. I guess there are some issues with the startup procedure / AI picking territories and thereafter placing a bunch of other units.
Did the AI picking of territories even start when you hosted? And is it even possible to go to settings as host and set AI pause duration to 0 ms?
This map issue is of high (second) most important to resolve as it maybe make multiplayer impossible.
The most important issue to resolve is the AIs inability to handle lad territory canals with unit type restrictions. (I wonder if the AI actually has the same issue when using sea territory canals. Can it not see/handle that some specific units may not go through a canal? Do the sea units that are restricted from going through a canal stack up at the entrance?)
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Orc Zeppelin and Human Airship
For the cost are way too good, they have a general purpose stat line 3 3 4 and can carry a unit.Im thinking the stat line should be 2 2 2
So all air transports should be move 2, they can still hop over enemy units in a territory, fly over mountain ranges(air bridges), fly over the sea and 3 of them can still deliver 3 units deep into enemy territory by flying over the sea.This will then bring all flyers with no transport down to move 3 including Taurean Owl-Form.
Currently Taurean Owl-Form is OP, fly 5 to an enemy capital, kill the defenders and repeat, game over.
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I played the map 3 times now and think it is great! I love the randomization and the Heroes.
I played two times as horde and once as alliance on 175% income for AI. I didn't give AI origins and only used their xp and veterans once on turn 10. I quit the alliance game early because AI got stuck in base.
Some things I noticed:
Ships are very important because they give access to a lot of resources. Alliance Starts with harbours or is very close to them. Only one horde faction starts near a harbour. Depending on how creeps spawn that can be a big disadvantage. Even under optimal conditions I get a harbour earliest on turn 3. I found no way of upgrading harbours so you can never build more then one ship per harbour. Humans are the only exception.
Flying units are extremely strong because they are essentially a land and water unit. On top of that they have very high movement (4) and good stats. Every alliance faction has flying units but only 2 horde factions have them. I think that is quite uneven. Having the option to build 2 kinds of flying units with different special resources is also very strong (e.g. Orgrimmar).
Suicide ammunition is a little tricky. Let's look at the following case: I have one catapult with on ammunition and my enemy 10 catapults. He moves next to me. I fire with one shot. That one shot destroys all his ammunition + the chance of killing one unit. Next turn he can't use those ammunition to attack because it is gone. At the end of turn he gets 10 ammunition again but I can just destroy it again. This makes ammunition very uneven. Whoever moves first gets a big disadvantage of never being able to use his ammunition. In a player vs player game this would probably lead to two armies camping one field apart all the time. AI doesn't use suicide ammunition to attack with only ammunition which made my games a lot easier. This system also puts a big disadvantage on scrolls potions etc. from heroes. I think the catapult category is extremely strong for the price independent of the mentioned effect.
Cavalry is very strong in the beginning for exploring. Later I found them quite weak for the price. Spearman are cheap and have good stats anyway and they make most cav a 1/1. I would probably lower the effect of spearman. On a side note if you give AI a lot of income they build a lot of cav which makes the game easier because you can counter them so well.
A lot of items and map objects don't have a description. I often found myself wondering what they are actually doing. Sometimes I could figure it out by the change of income or stats but on others I am still wondering. It would be cool to have a description on every item/object.
I wasn't able to use griffins or Air-Balloons as air transport at all. Orc Zeppelins only got full movement for air-transport in non-combat, was that intended?
Spider tanks (from gnomes) can move through the blue arrows like air. Is that intended?
There is plenty of food which makes PU's the bottleneck. Except for very early game I never build irregulars.
On turn 15 I got the following error on a non combat move of gnomes played by the AI. https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/7184
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What the table below is attempting to do is look at the overall balance of each race and each side, it is very subjective and has a personal taste.
The Alliance have 3 capitals close together, so if the Horde take one chances are another will fall, so game over. Being close means they are easier to defend, so double edged, so in interesting.
Advantage to Horde.Maximum ship production, even before the change in versions, production was still in favour of Alliance with 1+1+2+2=6 versus the Horde 4.
Advantage to Alliance.Ship Production is linked to how near and accessible the harbours are,
Advantage to Alliance.Special Units: my personal feelings on outstanding units, besides the Heroes and 2 HP units. Alliance have more flying units and forms of unit transport.
Advantage to Alliance.Special Units for Trolls, none.
Advantage to Alliance.For all the waffle above, it still produces a great game and the two real issues are;
• To have a worthy Troll Special Unit.
• Reduce the number of harbours for the Alliance to 5 or 6.
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@bel246 @TheDog Once again great feedback! I will very soon reply to it, and I have already gone through most of it and determined some sure changes to come. I like the level of detail in the feedback regards units and so. This really helps the development.
One map issue that bugs me is the AIs mishandling of Airways. This kind of ruins the AIs ability to play and AI therefore cannot show how it (with its limited playstyle) sees the map/alliance balance. I hope to write an official Github issue report soon, in the hopes of the devs coming to our aid
Also the issue of AI not building new factories is a huge disadvantage for an AI player, that makes it not really able to win I would say.
When looking at the "grand scale" of the alliances and balance I see, as you all point out , that the races are not equal on sea, air, territory defenseability (is that a real word?). But I would then really like to make this a part of the characteristics of this map. The issues could maybe be balanced out by some players, like the the horde, starting the game with one or more units than alliance, so that they may capture more land quickly as they have limited sea access. Perhaps then maybe at most game they are more equal in resources Just a suggestion.
Anyway. I will get back to you soon.
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@Frostion dont put too much store by my previous post, it is subjective, bar these two points;
• To have a worthy Troll Special Unit.
• Reduce the number of harbours for the Alliance to 5 or 6.The rest as you say are 'features' of the race.
The AI is getting too me as well, in my latest game the Undead have too many units at their capital, with no threat within 5 territories and the Trolls have a handful of units. The Undead dont have an Air Bridge to cause the problem.
Put me down for being a AI tester for the Devs.
Orcs: You do not have the required units to build in Senjin Village, this should say Rachet?
Taurean Gart-Form on the Buy Screen shows 0 0 0 for the stats.
I will await the next version.
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