Land units with strategic bombing?
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@redrum said "The functionality that you described around trebuchets would probably fit better as a trebuchet generating a projectile unit each turn that can move 1 and SBR while the trebuchet itself can be used for normal combat."
Like this?
I am still messing around and trying to find a decent artillery-factory-HP system. I have yet another question.
PoS2.xml says about maxOperationalDamage “A disabled unit will not participate in combat or be able to move.” But the units do in fact still participate in combat as both its AA attacks as well as support attachments are still active. Is this an error in the engine?
Map maker of: Star Wars: Galactic War + Star Wars: Tatooine War + Caribbean Trade War + Dragon War + Age of Tribes + Star Trek: Dilithium War + Iron War + Iron War: Europe + Warcraft: War Heroes
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@Frostion Nice. Love the unit images. @Hepps Is going to have a lot to live up to
I would love to see a map have a balanced combat system around having artillery/ammo as I think it would add more depth to the overall game. I think to have such a system succeed, you either need limited combat rounds or units have much higher defense than attack values in order to promote using the ammo and not just smashing 2 stacks together like most games.
That's a good question. I thought that the engine is supposed to be filtering out any 'disabled' units from participating in combat but not sure anyone has actually implemented a map doing that. I'll need to take a look at the engine code to see what its actually doing later this afternoon.
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@Frostion I looked at the engine and it should be removing any disabled units from combat. If you aren't seeing that happen then I'd be interested in seeing a save game showing it.
EDIT: Actually I think the issue is that the disabled units aren't removed until after first round of combat AA rolls. Is that what you are seeing as well?
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@redrum Well the red arrow ammo unit is actually inspires by a unit I have seen in @Hepps map
I hope to get a nice system up that really motivates players to use bombardment as the factories/bases should be really defensive and it would be a bloodbath to attack them without bombing the fortifications first. But at the moment I just want to prioritize map construction before I go into details, and the map is still a work in progress. There is a lot still to do.
Right now I have tested two basic dydtems for fortifications/bases. When they are fully operational they have either been giving defensive support to a number of troops (which is kind of boring, and I have used this in other maps), or in my current version the fortifications/bases have its own defensive AA firing …. Right now it is called “wall archers” and shoots AA attacks at every attacking unit. I like this version the best.
The problem is just, that only the bases that are totally killed can actually be deactivated by bombardment. Units that are not killed but should go non-operational just keep supporting, even though they have all the HP damaged. So it would be great if units that are disabled also loose their AA and support capabilities.
@redrum said "EDIT: Actually I think the issue is that the disabled units aren't removed until after combat AA rolls. Is that what you are seeing as well?" My units have had unlimited rounds of AA so I don’t know. But my experience is that even though the unit has reached max damaged, it just keeps supporting/firing AA as long as the battle lasts.
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@Frostion Ok. What you describe is how it should work so if units are disabled they don't fire AA or provide support. Looking at the code, I would think disabled units should be removed after that first round of combat so surprised you are seeing them fire even after round 1 of combat.
To test and fix it, I need to be able to recreate an example. If you can message me a working map and save that would probably be easiest.
TripleA Developer with a Passion for AI: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/105/ai-development-discussion-and-feedback
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To test and fix it, I need to be able to recreate an example. If you can message me a working map and save that would probably be easiest.
@redrum will say anything to get an advanced look at any map in development. :grinning_squinting_face:
Well the red arrow ammo unit is actually inspires by a unit I have seen in @Hepps map
@Frostion You could have said nothing and got away with it.
I would have known... but I would have said nothing. -
@Frostion There is of course not an official nomenclature, and this is fantasy, but "trebuchet" usually defines engines directly using dead weight or manpower to throw the projectile.
The main issue I have with something like artillery creating self-moving shells, assuming the artillery cannot move during combat move (to avoid sending that one into a battle and the shell into another one, which would be clearly absurd) is that you can move the mortar wherever you want, after having moved the shell into some combat; it would seem logical to me that artillery used to throw shells should be unable to move on a following phase. Secondarily, depending on real territory size and artillery range, it may make the only sense that the artillery has to go into the embattled territory, together with the shell.
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@Cernel I see what you mean and that it is kind of strange that the ammo can shoot from one territory to another, plus that fact that the ammo can go one way and the siege engine another way. I can see the possibilities in having just an ammo-free unit, like a stand alone siege engine with its own strategic bombardment capability, that can join in an attack along side infantry. If the attacking force's first attack round (including strategic bombing) goes badly, forces could withdraw, leaving behind the siege engines to the enemy.
But when it comes down to it, it is also fun hurling ammo towards enemy units from a safe distance
not engaging them in battle. And also having the freedom of using the artillery shells as either normal suicide battle units or suicide strategic bomber units is nice.I guess it is a matter of gameplay, realism, fun and also a of how the intire unit set works as a whole, that will determine how the bombing and siege engines will ultimately work.
(But either way, it is in this map a MUST that the advantages of the fortifications get disabled when the fortification is kaput. Otherwise I have to rethink my concept. @redrum I will send you a playable map and recreation instructions in a few days from now.)
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@Frostion BTW Loving the look & feel of the game snap shots. :thumbs_up:
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TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Germans round 1
TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.7
Game History
Round: 1 Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 1 artillery and 9 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 0 techTokens; Combat Move - Germans 1 submarine moved from 7 Sea Zone to 9 Sea Zone 1 submarine moved from 7 Sea Zone to 2 Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Norway to 2 Sea Zone 1 bomber moved from Germany to 2 Sea Zone 2 armour moved from Bulgaria Romania to East Poland 2 armour moved from Czechoslovakia Hungary to East Poland 2 armour moved from Poland to East Poland 1 infantry moved from Bulgaria Romania to East Poland 1 fighter moved from Poland to Ukraine 1 fighter moved from Germany to Baltic States 1 infantry moved from Poland to East Poland 1 fighter moved from Northwestern Europe to 6 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Poland to Baltic States 1 artillery moved from Poland to Baltic States 2 infantry moved from Poland to East Poland 1 infantry moved from Northwestern Europe to 5 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Norway to 5 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 5 Sea Zone to Baltic States 1 infantry moved from Morocco Algeria to 13 Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from France to 13 Sea Zone 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 13 Sea Zone to 16 Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from 16 Sea Zone to Ukraine 1 infantry moved from Bulgaria Romania to Ukraine 1 infantry moved from Bulgaria Romania to East Poland 1 artillery moved from Bulgaria Romania to East Poland 1 submarine moved from 5 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone Combat - Germans Battle in 9 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 submarine British defend with 1 destroyer and 1 transport Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 9 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits British roll dice for 1 destroyer and 1 transport in 9 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 9 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits British roll dice for 1 destroyer and 1 transport in 9 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 9 Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits British roll dice for 1 destroyer and 1 transport in 9 Sea Zone, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits 1 destroyer owned by the British and 1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in 9 Sea Zone British win with 1 transport remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2 Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine Casualties for British: 1 destroyer Battle in 2 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 submarine British defend with 1 battleship and 1 transport Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 2 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 fighter in 2 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 1,17 expected hits Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British British roll dice for 1 battleship and 1 transport in 2 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in 2 Sea Zone Germans roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 fighter in 2 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1,17 expected hits British roll dice for 1 battleship and 1 transport in 2 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 battleship owned by the British lost in 2 Sea Zone 1 transport owned by the British lost in 2 Sea Zone Germans win with 1 bomber and 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 21 Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine Casualties for British: 1 battleship and 1 transport Battle in 6 Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 fighter and 1 submarine British defend with 1 destroyer Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 6 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 fighter in 6 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0,50 expected hits British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 6 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits 1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in 6 Sea Zone retreated to 6 Sea Zone British win with 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is -6 Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine Battle in Baltic States Germans attack with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 3 infantry Russians defend with 3 infantry Germans roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 3 infantry in Baltic States, round 2 : 1/5 hits, 1,50 expected hits Russians roll dice for 3 infantry in Baltic States, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 1,00 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians and 2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Baltic States Germans roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Baltic States, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 1,17 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Baltic States, round 3 : 0/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Baltic States, round 4 : 3/3 hits, 1,17 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Baltic States, round 4 : 0/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 2 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Baltic States Germans win, taking Baltic States from Russians with 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3 Casualties for Germans: 2 infantry Casualties for Russians: 3 infantry Battle in East Poland Germans attack with 6 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry Russians defend with 2 infantry Germans roll dice for 6 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry in East Poland, round 2 : 3/12 hits, 4,33 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in East Poland, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 2 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in East Poland Germans win, taking East Poland from Russians with 6 armour, 1 artillery and 4 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3 Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry Battle in Ukraine Germans attack with 1 fighter and 3 infantry Russians defend with 2 infantry Germans roll dice for 1 fighter and 3 infantry in Ukraine, round 2 : 0/4 hits, 1,00 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Ukraine, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Ukraine Germans roll dice for 1 fighter and 2 infantry in Ukraine, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 0,83 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Ukraine, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Ukraine Germans roll dice for 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Ukraine, round 4 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits Russians roll dice for 2 infantry in Ukraine, round 4 : 0/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Ukraine Germans roll dice for 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Ukraine, round 5 : 1/2 hits, 0,67 expected hits Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Ukraine, round 5 : 1/1 hits, 0,33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Ukraine Germans win, taking Ukraine from Russians with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -10 Casualties for Germans: 1 fighter and 2 infantry Casualties for Russians: 2 infantry Non Combat Move - Germans 1 infantry moved from Finland to Norway 1 armour moved from France to Poland 1 fighter moved from 2 Sea Zone to Norway 1 bomber moved from 2 Sea Zone to Norway 1 fighter moved from 6 Sea Zone to Germany 1 artillery moved from Germany to Poland 3 infantry moved from Germany to Poland 1 infantry moved from France to Germany 1 fighter moved from Baltic States to Germany Place Units - Germans 1 artillery and 9 infantry placed in Germany Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 35 PUs; end with 35 PUs Objective 1: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 40 PUs Objective 2: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 45 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Germans : -3,83 British : 0,33 Russians : 0,67 -
@Lundini love the name
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@redrum said in Land units with strategic bombing?:
@Frostion Ok. What you describe is how it should work so if units are disabled they don't fire AA or provide support. Looking at the code, I would think disabled units should be removed after that first round of combat so surprised you are seeing them fire even after round 1 of combat.
To test and fix it, I need to be able to recreate an example. If you can message me a working map and save that would probably be easiest.
@redrum Returning to this old issue again
I am using the latest prerelease and the behavior is that disabled units still fire AA even in round 2+ of combat.Would you still take a look at this issue?
And is there a reason for the engine not disabling a units AA abillity emidiatly before even first strike of round 1, if the unit was disabled even before battle begins? Hitting maxOperationalDamage does however seem to disable a unit's production ability. So this works at least.
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@Frostion I can though it would make it much easier if you have an easy to test example.
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@Frostion So, to summarize and make sure, is the latest issue at hand that disabling any units doesn't disable their AA attacks nor their ability to give support, while it correctly disables their regular attacks, instead? Isn't that maybe just intended?
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