A new option for factories

[Hepps]

@Cernel and @Schulz This feature already exists in the engine. You can do air battles independently already.

[redrum]

@Hepps I think they mean they want to be able to have an air battle and no land battle following it.

Its technically possible in a few ways but none of them are great solutions:

1. You could turn off ground battles all together but then you'd have no ground battles so probably not a workable solution.
2. You could make it so all land units can't attack air units and all air units can't attack ground units using AA attacks instead of regular attacks.
3. As @Cernel mentions you could allow air to SBR other air units (this is possible in TWW by bombers being able to target transport planes). This is a bit different then an actual air battle but could be an interesting approach.

I think the main challenge is you most likely need a way for players to determine whether they want remaining units after an air battle to then create a land battle. As if I also say move land units to that territory then I probably want surviving air units to participate in that battle.

Here are a few ways something like this could be added to the engine:

1. Property that if true only creates a land battle (possibly sea battles as well) after an air battle if there are non-air attacking units.
2. Have a sort of sub like functionality where air units could "submerge/hide/withdraw" at the start of land battle just like subs can avoid sea battles in v3+ rules by submerging at the start.

[Hepps]

@redrum I was going to say... if you gave aircraft the ability to withdraw before land battles...

[Schulz]

@Cernel Air warfare is really must and literally no reason to exclude it because air units are the only one that enemy cannot destroy due to hit and run and lack of this feature. The same thing also applies to bombing. Enemy can constantly bomb factories and players can do nothing against this besides putting aaGun.

These air fighters were CAS (Close air support) some of them were carrier based, Triplea fighter is just combine of fighter and CAS. Air units should definitely help land battles too as historically on the other hand air units have lack of efficiency based on distance.

For Example bombing Moscow from Berlin should not be as efficient as bombing it from Belarus. The same also applies to CAS. Plus if you care history than better to make CAS as separate unit with shorter range.

[Cernel]

@Schulz Realistically, it does't matter how much ground attack oriented your air force might be: if you attack with only air (and without paratroopers or such), you will inflict virtually no damage to any enemy land forces, or anyways much less that your costs. Attacking land forces with air only is such a waste that could be very well approximated by making it outright impossible. The basic games sort of do it by just making air units a lot more expensive than the cheapest land units, but this is just limiting the nonsense.

I suggest opening a feature request about this. I would then move all these posts in there.

[Schulz]

@Cernel

You sure CAS or medium bombers cannot harm enemy ground forces even without AA? I don't know. But its true it will never be cost efficient assuming enemy ground forces have aaGun.

It is already possible to prevent air units to damage enemy land forces if you adjust air units like gas.

Yes I am considering to open some feature request if I can't find another way.

[Schulz]

@redrum

I think air battles could be possible in non-factory territories without land battle. Wouldn't adding invisible infastructure to every territory bring this feature?

[redrum]

@Schulz I believe you can have air battles without infrastructure.

[Schulz]

What properties and options are needed for 3.rd option? I am fine with the current air warfare in factory zones. If it would drastically change battle warfare than I would simply put infastructure to all territories.

But other problem is I won't be able to add infastructure to sea zones.

[redrum]

@Schulz If you want to just allow a bombing raid in any territory so that it can spawn an air only battle then you'd just need to add some unit with these attributes:

    <attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="airfield" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
      <option name="isInfrastructure" value="true"/>
      <option name="canBeDamaged" value="true"/>
    </attachment>

Then either add a unit image say an airfield/airport image and place one in every territory.

Then update any air unit to have bombing capability:

    <attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="fighter" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
      <option name="movement" value="4"/>
      <option name="isAir" value="true"/>
      <option name="attack" value="3"/>
      <option name="defense" value="4"/>
      <option name="isStrategicBomber" value="true"/>
      <option name="bombingBonus" value="-99"/>
      <option name="airAttack" value="3"/>
      <option name="airDefense" value="4"/>    
    </attachment>

[Cernel]

@redrum I'm not sure I'm getting what you intend, but, if I do, the problem with that is that air battles preceding bombing raids cannot force defending units to take part in the air battle.

So, there is no point in spawning air battles, if the bombed target does nothing else.

[redrum]

@Cernel Yeah, you'd have to "player enforce" that rule. I was just showing him if he wanted SBR air battles everywhere how to achieve it.

[Cernel]

@redrum Well, this is also probably the simplest way to obtain something like this (bombing raid aimed at engaging and killing the enemy air force), if just adding a property for obliging the defender always using all its interceptors. The way it works now doesn't really make full sense, anyways, since you either want to use all or none.

[Schulz]

@redrum but after doing this enemy can decline dogfighting which I don't want.

[Schulz]

Is it possible to add infastructure option to air units? Thus without adding invisible infastructures to every territories, air battles will be exist without land battle in non/factory territories?

[redrum]

@Schulz Yes, that is option 3 above where you can turn certain planes to infra so they can he bombed.

[Schulz]

When I added only infastructure option to air units, they turned enemy fighters after the battle than Once I added both infastructure and "canbedamaged" options then enemy fighters gained to decline air battle option.

[redrum]

@Schulz Yeah, if you go that route you would be "bombing" enemy planes rather than a true air battle.

[Schulz]

Transports don't land to friendly territories in combat movement. How do I solve this issue?

[Captain Crunch]

@Schulz I'm just curious ... do you really need this function or you just bored and trying to ask about 3 or 4 questions a day?