Domination 1914 No Man's Land - Official Thread

redrum

Ladder created here: https://triplealadder.com/tournamatch.php?file=ladders&mode=moreinfo&lid=9

I would encourage folks to join the ladder and post final save games here in this thread to discuss further balance changes. Also with v1.3 now released, I'd like to see folks play with no house rules to see if any are still needed.

Schulz

Well great update, overpowered farming issue seems solved. But I personally think a decent entente player is still close to be unbeatable.

The problem is Centrals can't get enoght extra income from territories to compete with Entente when USA entirely join the war (roughly after r7-8), Usually Germany varely holds western front, grabs Switzerland, Stockholm, Poland a few African territories and Mexico city unless Entente has done serious mistakes roughly 32-37 more incomes from startup but also losing some pacific and african colonies roughly 13 incomes so only +20/+24 more income before usa enitrely joining war (total 132-135 incomes) unless early breaking Belarus which is almost impossible without entente mistakes.

While UK stucks mostly in 113/117 which is only slighly lower than Germany. (It was easy to outproduce Germany with Mexico City factory). While still high enogh to presurre both Ottomans and Germany and easier exceeding this limit compared to Germany with Middle Eastern territories.

Also game is a bit fail to project Cp gains in eastern Europe; Russia is like UK a bit strong to me. Conscript is too powerful and Capturing Eastern Europe is alot harder than Capturing the Middle East. In my most games Ottomans start losing in the Middle East before Russia starting to lose in Europe. Russia eventually start losing in far east strong Commies isn't as useful as Strong Germany, they suffer logistic issues and Germany actually needs more these incomes than Commies.

To me at least 8 UK inf/cav 2 French inf, 2 Serb inf, 4 Italian inf/artillery and 4 Rus inf/conscript should be removed from set up.

redrum

@Schulz So I agree that Entente are probably a bit stronger right now and the house rule to give germany war bonds plus another tech was an attempt to address that. I think we do need to either adjust some unit placements or adjust production a bit. But I'd like to see some save games between experienced players and some suggestions on the best way to bring a bit more starting balance.

Your suggestion around removing some Entente units is probably a bit too far IMO as that's like 60 TUV but I think we could consider a step in that direction.

epinikion

We have one more really annoying unbalancing issue, that is not really related to the map or the rules. Its a statistically impossible hit result of conscript defending that hurts centrals so much and same time also statistically impossible how often high number token rolls (4 or 5) fail. I really dont speak about 1-5 games. its the result of more then 50 games. You can ask all experts to this topic. Its really there. I am not psychotic
There must be a program bug at dice server...

wirkey

what's annoying most and the reason I'm not playing this map is the unrealistic farming. I'd really like to see a mechanism where neutral territories join the opposing side if any of the territories of that "country" are attacked.
own Countries would be:
Mexico
Cuba
Brasil
Argentina
Venezuela
Peru
Bolivia
they would go to either US or Germany if attacked

Spain (with colonies) -> US/GER
Portugal (with colonies) -> UK/GER
Persia -> Ottomans/Russia
China -> that one is difficult
Dutch -> East Indies stay neutral if Amsterdam falls but it becomes opposing to the attacker if Amsterdam and/or Holland attacked and not occupied. If East Indies are attacked the entire Dutch join the opposition.
Norway -> UK/GER
Sweden -> Rus/GER
Denmark (Iceland/Greenland) -> UK/GER

lots of triggerin, i know...

NGMC

@epinikion I agree with this wholeheartedly.

wirkey

This post is deleted!

redrum

@epinikion @NGMC There are no issues with the randomness of dice and every map/nation/etc uses the same dice roller... You can literally read through the open source code for the dice roller. You've played TripleA long enough that you should know that some games you get lucky and some you don't and it averages out over time. In case you want the details as this has been asked before: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/890/show-code-for-dice-algorithm

@wirkey While I agree that the mass neutral farming feels a bit strange, its essentially a core part of this map and creating lots of small countries would really turn this into a complete different map. That being said, your exact idea is what @Hepps and I are working on for the new WW1 map: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1063/power-of-politics-1914-a-wwi-scenario

Schulz

In my experiences; The best Central strategies are either quickly capturing Belarus and siezing Moscow, Volgograd Caucasus or Taking Switzerland and capturing Piedmont and Marseille and possibly taking Rome before USA start to reinforcing these areas. Still need enormous entente mistakes to win as Central though.

First time I've tried Switzerland push, If France move its troops to Rhone from Paris and Brittany instead of pushing Belgium, neither Marseille nor Piedmont fall. Germany can't keep Belgium and Champagne at the same time too when Britain and a few French troops hold Picardy. Germany stuck in Switzerland and loss Poland due to Russian counter assaults. Russia becomes unbetable in this scenario, Rhey become unable to destoy mass spam conscripts.

Rushing Russia is for me the best strategsy as Centrals, only marginally better than Switzerland push. Still requires tons of Entente mistakes to work.

Today I had tried the second one by playing with myself. The same scenario occured and Entente won in r6.
entente_victory.tsvg

epinikion

@redrum The tons of experience i have should let you answer slower. I know the standard answers, you gave again here. I am not a dice-complainer at all and i know all about confirmation bias.

if you are not interested in dice-server problems: no problem.

epi

epinikion

@wirkey: well thx for the picture, but you really ignoring the problem

epi

Schulz

Germany is roughly %17-%25 stronger than Germany in GW map but relatively very weak compared to its main foes. And taking into account the facts that how big the German navy in GW and easier to protect German coasts.

In GW its not unusual to see France+UK total income is only slighly higher than Germany (%8-%10) while in NML UK can still outproduces Germany alone. That's big issue.

France is also %50 stronger than GW France. The issue is like other major Entente nations you have enogh income to fully place all starting factories. I mean just being able to putting 20 French unit per rounds mean you have no troble to find out your priorities. As Russia you can perfectly keep Commies and Eastern front with conscript spawn. UK also has plenty of income to keep and go everywhere.

redrum

@epinikion I created a separate thread to discuss any dice issues.

KurtGodel7

I have a few ideas on how to address the balance issues Schultz is pointing out:

Add a German factory to Silesia. Add +1 to the value of Silesia. This territory is only 2 steps away from Belarus. A factory here would increase the strength of Germany's early game anti-Russia push. Because the territory does not border the ocean or the Baltic, you don't have to worry about it being used to build transports to zerg rush someone's capital.
Replace merchant marine with a tech called sub. This tech allows you to build subs. Germany (and perhaps Austria) start with sub tech, all other nations must research it.
German neutral farming in South America. This is a renewal of an idea I'd mentioned earlier. With proper starting unit setup, you could ensure that Germany gets a good foothold in South America before the Entente has a chance to do anything. You could even reduce the value of Panama down to 1 PU if necessary to nerf a potential American factory in the area.
Propaganda as a starting tech for communists. Historically, if the communists were good at one thing, it was propaganda. Starting them out with this tech is very realistic and conducive to game balance.

Schulz

What about this set up:

Baluchistan and Formosa become 2. Removing -4 Income from UK, -6 from USA.

-1 tranny from sz 20-21, Removing one units in each of these territories: Algeria; Franche-Comte, Naples, Apulia, Calcutta, Western Australia, Vologda, Naryan-Mar, Petersburg, Scotland, Greece.

Also I liked Silesia factory too.

wirkey

@epinikion there is a huge difference between ignoring a problem and not seeing one. To ignore something to first have to notice that something is there. But i don't want to go into that any further.

epinikion

@wirkey my issue is that i saw one special unit in a lot of games hitting way over average. That might sound silly, but when you answer with the stats for the rolls per nations i dont get how that refers to my issue. I am just saying there is one unit (not one nation) that hits in tons of games over average.

Schulz

Also it would be nice to set up all options ll as default in next update.

wirkey

@redrum said in Domination 1914 No Man's Land - Official Thread:

@wirkey While I agree that the mass neutral farming feels a bit strange, its essentially a core part of this map and creating lots of small countries would really turn this into a complete different map. That being said, your exact idea is what @Hepps and I are working on for the new WW1 map: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1063/power-of-politics-1914-a-wwi-scenario

I know it would make a complete or almost complete new game and I know that most likely nobody will make all the work. It's probably the only way to get me to play this map (again). I just don't get over the fact, that those neutrals are not defending themselves. It's the same for NWO and WAW (really bad in South America, too). I've played with house rules and I like that way better.

About your and @Hepps game:
will you have real neutral nations that join others (becoming something like the minors in TWW) or are those just neutral territories, that become "true" german/french etc when attacked?

Cernel

@wirkey Totally inactive but hostile neutrals is a TripleA only feature, inexistent the basic games, that has found a lot of favour amongst mapmakers, and that figures extensively in almost all the most popular custom games.

Regarding its silliness, you would say it about whatever historical modern maps having any of those, comprising Total World War (for example, Mongolia, that should actually rather be a minor of Russia since start game or even just part of Russia) (on the other hand, for example, you would probably agree it is acceptable in 270BC, instead).