Cold War 1965 - Official Thread
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@Lord-Bevan oh, what are the nukes for then? Why should Russia not fire at US like that?
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
I am glad that I have contacted Krieghund to discuss the change-of-control aspect in v1 when I stumbled over the eventual inconsistency through different editions, as it turned out, that in v1 ownership of the walked-in empty enemy territory is supposed to change during Conduct Combat Phase, too (except the discussed Blitz-situation, of course). That means we do actually have consistence from v1 on - it means that TripleA is wrong starting from v1, too.
The misleading sentence in the Classic rulebook
"Attacking Enmy-Controlled Territories - A Combat Move Without A Battle!
During the combat move phase of your turn, you can move your units into adjacent enemy-controlled territories and take control without engaging in combat. These enemy-controlled territories are not occupied by enemy units..."(and emphasized by me) is supposed to be interpreted simply to call out the fact that such a move is still a combat move, even though no actual battle will result.
Concerning the v3-Blitz-issue, Krieghund said: "Control of a blitzed territory, on the other hand, changes immediately, in the Combat Move phase. I don’t know whether the control change in the Conduct Combat phase is a programming error or it was just done that way because it was easier."
cc: @LaFayette
So, going back to this, to make sure, the phrase:
During the combat move phase of your turn, you can move your units into adjacent enemy-controlled territories and take control without engaging in combat.
doesn't mean:
During the combat move phase of your turn, you can move your units into adjacent enemy-controlled territories and immediately take control without engaging in combat.
and, instead, means:
During the combat move phase of your turn, you can move your units into adjacent enemy-controlled territories and take control of each of them during the combat phase of the same turn without engaging in combat.
Practically, Classic only gives you a specific (yet substantially useless) special rule about taking control of undefended non-blitzed territories without making a battle, but still only during the same phase in which battles are done, while Revised and anything following don't bother giving you this special rule. Thus you, instead, in Revised and anything following, make battles in these territories against nothing, skipping all steps in which you would roll the dice (since you have no targets), then taking control of each of the territories during the first round of combat.
So, in "Classic" you have "A Combat Move Without A Battle" situation, in this case, while in "Revised" and following you, instead, still have a battle in each of such cases too, but no substantial difference between the rules sets, at the end, on this matter. So, in Revised and following, instead of saying "A Combat Move Without A Battle", we would say something like "A Combat Move With A Battle Against Nothing".
TripleA wise, what should happen in "Classic", when I move 1 infantry into an empty enemy territory, is that the territory is conquered or liberated, without making a battle, during the "Conduct Combat" (or however it is called in the game) phase, while TripleA incorrectly have it conquered immediately as the unit moves into it, during the "Combat Move" phase.
TripleA wise, what should happen in "Revised" and all following games, when I move 1 infantry into an empty enemy territory, is that the territory is conquered or liberated, making a battle against no enemy units, during the "Conduct Combat" (or however it is called in the game) phase, while TripleA incorrectly have it conquered immediately as the unit moves into it, during the "Combat Move" phase.
Did I get everything right?
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@Cernel What you concluded makes perfect sense - in a somehow "academical consideration".
However I am not convinced that TripleA would need different approaches here.
In all versions the territory is conquered during Conduct Combat Phase.
While the wording of the rules in v1 explicitly includes "without engaging in combat", this part is missing in later rulesets.But practically in later rulesets engagement in combat in the situations in question is more or less theoretical. What happens on the gameboard?
When attacking an empty enemy territory during Conduct Combat Phase you maybe should but actually would not place the attacking unit onto the battleboard, search for an enemy unit with the intention to place it there for the battle, too, notice there is no enemy unit, consider the "resulting battle" as won, put your unit back to the gameboard and take ownership of the territory, Instead during the Conduct Combat Phase you would simply take ownership (place a marker on the board and adjust income). So practically "engaging in combat" or the "combat against nothing" here is maybe only a thought.
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@mattbarnes said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@Lord-Bevan oh, what are the nukes for then? Why should Russia not fire at US like that?
I am refering to the fact that the two US nukes will get destroyed. Sucide units do not die if you did not lose. At least i checked it out in NML.
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@Lord-Bevan That is because the gas of no mans land doesn't suicide in defence. The property is called "Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire" and it is absent in this game (thus defaults to false, that means they do fire).
I have not tested, by I believe the suicide units of this game will suicide if the territory is attacked by whatever units (for example, 1 infantry attacking a territory with 100 infantries and 1 ICBM should cause the ICBM to suicide and be lost, always).
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
The property is called "Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire" and it is absent in this game (thus defaults to false, that means they do fire).
Haven't tested right now, but I also believe that (as usual in TripleA) the property is wrongly named/descriptive. What this property does is avoiding activating the suiciding behaviour in defence, not making the suicide units unable to fire (they will fire normally, without suiciding, if they can).
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@Lord-Bevan However, now that I think about it, you may be right that this is a bug. If an ICBM alone attacks a territory with an ICBM (and possibly other units), the defending ICBM has no actual targets to fire at (since suicide units can never target other suicide units, normally), thus it should not fire (for nothing), thus not suicide, in this case. Opinions on this? Is this a wrong behaviour?
CC: @Panther
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Are there two aspects to this? (A) what is the correct in-game mechanic and (B) what is realistic?
One might argue that it’s realistic that nuke sites might be pre-emptively struck, or alternatively maybe one considers that the US nukes would really have been fired as soon as the USSR nukes were detected in-coming.
Could the owner of the map indicate which approach they feel is more appropriate and/or what they think the creator intended?
Absent this strike on Eastern US, it would leave US at a 3v1 against USSR in nukes, which may not have been the intention. In fact, I wonder if those 2 nukes are present specifically to entice the USSR pre-emotive strike?
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@mattbarnes said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
One might argue that it’s realistic that nuke sites might be pre-emptively struck
This is not what is happening. The US nukes are not being struck. They are actively suiciding to hit enemy units that are invading the territory they are defending, except that they can target none of these units.
or alternatively maybe one considers that the US nukes would really have been fired as soon as the USSR nukes were detected in-coming.
This is what it is happening. Except that there is no point doing it: Suicide units cannot target other suicide units, thus the USSR nukes cannot blow up the US nukes and the US nukes cannot shot down the incoming USSR nukes, either.
Could the owner of the map indicate which approach they feel is more appropriate and/or what they think the creator intended?
I can hardly think the creator didn't notice such behaviour, but I would guess it is more probable he resigned to it, rather than intended it.
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Would be nice to loop in the OC. AFAIK this map is usually played with Kamikaze turned on, a standard opening move is to nuke the single US ICBM and send a nuclear bomber on a suicide mission to take out the other two ICBMs, leaving US with zero by their turn.
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Hi @Cernel , yeah, I appreciate the mechanics of one suicide unit defending against the attack of the other, thus expending itself. However, my point is that it could be deemed to be representing a pre-emptive strike on the ICBM site (and surroundings) even if that's not what the mechanic is actually doing.
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Please can someone confirm recommended AI setup for a 2 human game? Eg is it AI Hard for China and Sinopact, with AI Does Nothing for the USA-Neutrals and USSR-Neutrals?
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And should Trucks be able to LandTransport?
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@Cernel said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
@Lord-Bevan However, now that I think about it, you may be right that this is a bug. If an ICBM alone attacks a territory with an ICBM (and possibly other units), the defending ICBM has no actual targets to fire at (since suicide units can never target other suicide units, normally), thus it should not fire (for nothing), thus not suicide, in this case. Opinions on this? Is this a wrong behaviour?
CC: @Panther
@Cernel
I am not familiar with this game and its units., so I am not sure I understand this. So an ICBM is a nuclear weapon intended to attack an enemy territory and while doing so is removed? A defending ICBM on the other side is not intended to attack a territory but attacking units instead? Except that it can't hit the attacking ICBM so it has no valid target to fire at (in the situation in question)? And in case it had a valid target would be removed after shooting?
Is the attacking ICMB something like strategic or tactical bombing? When and how does it fire? And the defending ICMB is always a tactical weapon intendend to fire when?Don't always trust TripleA when it comes to rules questions. Know the rules before you start … and better check what TripleA has done.
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I note there's a duff link between SZ10 and SZ13 if anyone has time for repairs please.
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@mattbarnes Yeah, I would recommend setting AI-China and AI-Sinopact to Hard AI. The other neutral players probably just set to Does Nothing AI (but doesn't really matter since they don't have any phases so won't do anything no matter what).
Trucks are just used for cheap, high movement fodder units and don't have isLandTransport currently.
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@Panther said in Cold War 1965 - Official Thread:
A defending ICBM on the other side is not intended to attack a territory but attacking units instead?
FWIW, a defending ICBM when attacked always suicides and is removed. It's in part meant to represent nuclear first strike. There can be a house rule whether AA fire can prevent this or not. It introduces a dynamic where producing an ICBM can in turn cause the opponent to use any they have in stockpile thereby trading them. If someone can get ahead by more than 1 ICBM then they have an advantage. Being able to place nuclear bombers (which have quite massive range of 10 IIRC) in position to be able to strike at a factory that could build a ICBM is a valuable suppression technique to trade an expensive nuclear bomber for an even more expensive ICBM, typically preventing an opponent from building one in that case (which makes kamikaze even more potent of a setting, which AFAIK is somewhat often toggled to on for this map)
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@Panther ICBM can indeed perform bombing raids, but this is not relevant to the matter at hand. Therefore, I'll ignore such ability, from now on.
Aside from bombing raiding, the ICBM, both when offending and when defending, is a suicide unit that fires before all other units, but after AA attacks (thus doesn't fire if shot down by AA), being able to target all targetable (non-targetable are only aaGun and factories, as usual in any games before v5) enemy units except other ICBM (an ICBM can never target other ICBM). All units taken as casualties or removed because of hits from ICBM are removed from the battle before they can fire back.
Assuming using an ICBM on a territory containing one or more enemy ICBM and other targetable units, and that the territory has no aaGun units (or all AA defensive attacks miss), what should be the behaviour of defending ICBM.
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The defending ICBM don't fire, since they have no targets, but are lost anyway for being a suicide unit involved in a battle (this appears to be the program's behaviour).
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The defending ICBM don't fire, since they have no targets, thus they don't suicide, thus surely survive the battle (as the territory is being attacked by ICBM only, that are unable to hit defending ICBM just like defending ICBM are unable to hit offending ones).
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The defending ICBM fire, despite having no targets, thus they suicide (while actually hitting nothing).
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@Cernel @LaFayette Thank you for the explanation.
I would tend to option 2. I would understand a "suicide unit" as being a unit that "commits suicide" by taking any 'fighting action'.
In the given scenario the defending ICMB cannot take such an action (it is simply present), so there is nothing that would cause 'suicide'. -
Hi everyone. This is Dave Ball... I am the original author for Cold War: 1965. Unfortunately, due to personal commitments, I abandoned this map and Triple A years ago. However, I am pleasantly surprised to see that Redrum took it upon himself to update it to the latest version of the game engine.
I am also glad to see play testing has been done. That was one thing that I lacked early on in order to address game balance and bugs. Reading through the posts, I can see much though has gone into making the map usable. Somewhere, I have all of the original graphics files stored and notes if needed.
I will go through the posts and respond where I can. Thanks for not letting this map languish forever.
- Dave
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