Add Ability For Suicide Units to Provide Support

redrum

So thinking about this a little more, I'm starting to wonder if isSuicide should be reworked now that isSub was broken into separate options. As really isSuicide is currently doing 2 separate things which is having the unit roll first (essentially isFirstStrike) and dieing after its attempted roll. We also now have isSuicideOnHit that can be used for many scenarios.

This would also seem to align with what @Cernel mentions here: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/323/unit-option-which-suicides-only-when-it-registers-a-hit-mines/28. Where you have some sort of isSuicideOnRolling instead where if you want the unit to always die then it would just be set to the dice sides but you could then have 3 outcomes for suicide-like units:

It hits and suicides
It misses and suicides
It misses and survives

So what does all that mean in relation to suicide units giving support? It makes the whole thing a lot cleaner as you could have the suicide unit roll with the rest of the units (like isSuicideOnHit does) rather than before all units so it gives its support before dying.

Cernel

@redrum It has been a while since I tested, but I believe that, for the old "isSuicide", supporting is not really a matter of when it dies. I remember I tested it and I couldn't have a "isSuicide" unit receiving (not giving) support from a normal unit, despite that, of course, the normal unit is still there when the suicidal one attacks and dies.
I was trying to have a normal "artillery" unit giving support to an attack 0 "isSuicide" "ammunition" unit, and it didn't work, the "ammunition" not receiving support at all (I guess I could test it again).
Yeah, I agree there is no reason why a suicide unit must also be "isFirstStrike" too, but mind you currently there is a property that determines that for suicidal units (well, it actually determines if the casualties can fire back, similarly to naval bombard).
And, yes, with a "isSuicideOnRolling" the old "isSuicide" would become redundant, as you could set it at the dice sides, and also the new "isSuicideOnHit" would become mostly redundant, as you could set it at the same attack or defence value, except not for units both attacking and defending at different values (tho, in case of support, here you would need the support to change this value as well).

Cernel

The other matter that is not covered about suicidal units is having something like a V2 or an ICBM that doesn't die or fight if the territory gets attacked. Currently the only way to do this is making the unit an infrastructure with defence 0 that doesn't suicide on defence (like done for the "gas" of Domination NML), but that comes with the limit that you can only attack with at least 1 non infrastructure unit (so that would not be acceptable for a V2, an ICBM, or any rockets, really).

redrum

@Cernel I think isSuicide units are essentially handled completely separately in the engine and don't receive/give any support. But I don't believe that is the case for isSuicideOnHit which I think can receive/give support. Assuming that is the case, my thought is to essentially get rid of isSuicide and make them act like isSuicideOnHit so they can properly give/receive support.

Cernel

@redrum You mean "isSuicide" would become a shortcut to generate the new option, with proper values, or updating all games having "isSuicide" (it might be feasible; I don't think there are too many).

redrum

@Cernel Either way. It would depend on how many maps need updated but would probably deprecate it and just make it set the new properties to be safe.

Frostion

@redrum said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

So thinking about this a little more, I'm starting to wonder if isSuicide should be reworked now that isSub was broken into separate options. As really isSuicide is currently doing 2 separate things which is having the unit roll first (essentially isFirstStrike) and dieing after its attempted roll. We also now have isSuicideOnHit that can be used for many scenarios.
This would also seem to align with what @Cernel mentions here: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/323/unit-option-which-suicides-only-when-it-registers-a-hit-mines/28. Where you have some sort of isSuicideOnRolling instead where if you want the unit to always die then it would just be set to the dice sides but you could then have 3 outcomes for suicide-like units:

It hits and suicides
It misses and suicides
It misses and survives

So what does all that mean in relation to suicide units giving support? It makes the whole thing a lot cleaner as you could have the suicide unit roll with the rest of the units (like isSuicideOnHit does) rather than before all units so it gives its support before dying

Any chance on realizing this? I could really need these expanded options in regards to the suicide units? I hope a feature like this could also be to the benefit of several other maps in development. @Cernel ? @Hepps ? Maybe I am not the only one who wants to be able to "customize" the suicidal units behavior.

redrum

@Frostion Anything is possible mostly comes down to time and willingness

Power of Politics could probably take advantage of this to avoid having to use isSuicideOnHit and 12/12 so that it always hits in order to provide the support like I posted above.

Cernel

@Frostion I always wanted using suicide to simulate artillery consumption, using a suicide unit at roll 0 and an artillery unit that gives 1 roll support to the suicide unit, but, for that, one would need all the following:

The suicide unit able to receive support.
The suicide unit not suiciding if it currently has 0 rolls.
The suicide unit suiciding if it currently has 1 or more rolls, regardless of hitting.

That way, for example, if you have 1 artillery unit at support roll 1 and 3 shell unit at roll 0, you would be able to fire 1 shell per combat round, on the first 3 combat rounds. Then you could manage the shell and artillery ratio.

But in the moment a system like this is not supported, nobody can really consider starting anything.

Frostion

So if isSuicide/isSuicideOnHit could be reworked to allow more flexibility and unit options, could we be looking for these unit features (here with some made up names):

isSuicideAfterFirstStrike (first strike hit or mis = dies)

isSuicideAfterFirstStrikeHit (first strike hit = dies / first strike mis = survives and enters 1. combat round)

isSuicideAfterCombatRoll *† (combat roll hit or mis = dies)

isSuicideAfterCombatRollHit * (combat roll hit = dies / combat roll mis = survives and enters 2. combat round)

*Units with this feature can give/recive support during 1. combat round, and after if it survives.
†This unit could have have 0 att/def during 1. combat round, give or get support and then die

Have I understood this correctly?

Cernel

@Frostion said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

So if isSuicide/isSuicideOnHit could be reworked to allow more flexibility and unit options, could we be looking for these unit features (here with some made up names):

I'm not understanding why you would need 4 different options, while, in my mind, isSuicideOnRolling would cover all those 4 situations and more.

isSuicideAfterFirstStrike (first strike hit or mis = dies)

This could be covered by setting isSuicideOnRolling equal to the dice sides, and assigning the same unit isFirstStrike true.

isSuicideAfterFirstStrikeHit (first strike hit = dies / first strike mis = survives and enters 1. combat round)

This could be covered by setting isSuicideOnRolling equal to the the attack/defence value, and assigning the same unit isFirstStrike true.

isSuicideAfterCombatRoll *† (combat roll hit or mis = dies)

This could be covered by setting isSuicideOnRolling equal to the dice sides.

isSuicideAfterCombatRollHit * (combat roll hit = dies / combat roll mis = survives and enters 2. combat round)

This could be covered by setting isSuicideOnRolling equal to the attack/defence value.

The only matter would be if you have a unit that you don't want to suicide both in attack and defence at the same roll, and this could be covered by splitting into two options: isSuicideOffensivelyOnRolling and isSuicideDefensivelyOnRolling.

And, in my mind, if the unit has 0 rolls, thus doesn't roll, then it cannot suicide (this way, you could have the unit suiciding or not by giving rolls with support attachments), but, anyways, any strength support should effect the isSuicideOnRolling options the same way, as well as any modifiers (territory effects, marines...) also to support the case of units supposed to sucide only on hit.

Frostion

@Cernel Well, if anything is decided or changed, I would still say my example names….
isSuicideAfterFirstStrike
isSuicideAfterFirstStrikeHit
isSuicideAfterCombatRoll
isSuicideAfterCombatRollHit
…are much more self-explanatory and simple to understand than what you just explained. But, whatever works

redrum

@Frostion So after thinking about this a little bit, I'm thinking the following options:

isSuicideOnAttack - if true then unit suicides after it attempts its attack roll in a regular battle or SBR
isSuicideOnDefense - if true then unit suicides after it attempts its defense roll in a regular battle
isSuicideOnHit - if unit gets a hit in combat (attack or defense) then it instantly dies

These can be combined isFirstStrike to determine when the roll and suicide occurs and whether it can receive support:

isFirstStrike		values: whether to roll dice and take casualties before regular units

This means that isSuicide will just be a shortcut that sets:
isSuicideOnAttack=true
isSuicideOnDefense=true unless property Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire is true
isFirstStrike=true

This would then deprecate isSuicide and Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire.

Thoughts?

Frostion

@redrum
A: And this will not affect existing maps, just like isSub is now just an umbrella option that covers other options?

B: And if unit is (for example) isSuicideOnAttack and has 0 attack strength, then it can join in an offensive battle and give support and then die after first round? Not being selectable as casualty? (like what I need for spell casting in Warcraft)

C1: And if mapmaker wanted to make sea or land mines that worked only pre-battle (like a minefield an army had to cross before battle or a seamine-line that ships had to sail through before battle) it could be isFirstStrike+ isSuicideOnHit?

C2: What would happen to the mines that did not hit? Are they selectable as casualties? or if they were isInfrastructure would they be out of battle afterwards and potentially overtaken by a winning enemy?

@Cernel @Hepps @redrum How would you use these presented options if you were to make different kinds of units that we cannot make right now? I'm curious and I also want some inspiration ?

redrum

@Frostion Responses:

A: Correct. There should be no change to existing maps though eventually I'd like to update them to use the new options directly so we can someday remove isSuicide and Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire.

B. Correct as long as you don't set isFirstStrike=true as that would cause it to suicide before the regular rolls.

C1. Correct. That should already work I believe.

C2. The original thought was to make them have an AA roll then have them be isHide so they get a roll to try and kill ships and if hit then suicide otherwise they hide. Originally discussed adding a property for "forceHide" but hasn't been done yet so would be a player enforced roll to that you have to hide them: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/323/unit-option-which-suicides-only-when-it-registers-a-hit-mines. If you didn't go down that path then they would be potential casualties if they didn't hit. If they were isInfra, I don't think they could attack alone so unless with other units would just be captured or destroyed. If they were with other units then they'd continue fighting each round until they hit or until only isInfra units are left.

Cernel

@redrum said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

@Frostion So after thinking about this a little bit, I'm thinking the following options:
isSuicideOnAttack - if true then unit suicides after it attempts its attack roll in a regular battle or SBR
isSuicideOnDefense - if true then unit suicides after it attempts its defense roll in a regular battle
isSuicideOnHit - if unit gets a hit in combat (attack or defense) then it instantly dies
These can be combined isFirstStrike to determine when the roll and suicide occurs and whether it can receive support:
isFirstStrike		values: whether to roll dice and take casualties before regular units
This means that isSuicide will just be a shortcut that sets:
isSuicideOnAttack=true
isSuicideOnDefense=true unless property Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire is true
isFirstStrike=true

This would then deprecate isSuicide and Defending Suicide and Munition Units Do Not Fire.

Thoughts?

My main questions are, regarding the not "on hit" ones:

Are they supportable (the current isSuicide is not)?
If the suicide unit has 0 dice rolls, will it suicide anyways or not?
If the suicide unit has positive dice rolls, but 0 value, will it suicide or not?

Again, I'm very much against properties ever setting options, deprecated or not, as that is turning matters upside down.

And, of course, matters could be both expanded and simplified by just having two "isSuicideOffensivelyOnRolling" and "isSuicideDefensivelyOnRolling" only, then the mapmaker can just set it equal to the dicesides if they want to suicide always (but only as long as actually rolling, thus never if 0 rolls) or setting it equal to attack or defence, if they want the "on hit" behaviour. It is also needed to make sure that anything effecting the attack/defence values (supports, marine, territory effects...) support these options values the same way (no idea how complex would this be, from a coding standpoint).

Personally, I believe the most interesting user case is having a suicide "shell" unit that has 0 rolls and is supported by a non suicide "artillery" unit, giving the "shell" unit 1 roll, the "shell" unit actually suiciding only if having 1 (or more) roll (not if having 0 rolls). Would your system allow for this?

Cernel

My suggestion is that suicide-always units suicide if they roll any number of dice at whatever value (comprising value 0), but they don't suicide if they are rolling no dice, no matter the attack/defence value. This way, you can have offenceless/defenceless units suiciding, if you want, by making them rolling at 0, or having offenceless/defenceless units not suiciding, if you want, by having them at 0 rolls (possibly with negative supports). The default would be always suiciding, of course, as the units default being attack/defence 0 and dice rolls 1, when the options are not specified.

redrum

@Cernel said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

Are they supportable (the current isSuicide is not)?

If they roll alongside the normal units (non-firststrike) then yes, if they roll with firststrike then depends if other firststrike can receive support (not sure whether that's currently possible and TWW has tried this for subs but it either isn't supported right now or there is some bug).

If the suicide unit has 0 dice rolls, will it suicide anyways or not?

Yes.

If the suicide unit has positive dice rolls, but 0 value, will it suicide or not?

Yes.

Personally, I believe the most interesting user case is having a suicide "shell" unit that has 0 rolls and is supported by a non suicide "artillery" unit, giving the "shell" unit 1 roll, the "shell" unit actually suiciding only if having 1 (or more) roll (not if having 0 rolls). Would your system allow for this?

Not fully. This tends to conflict with how Frostion is trying to use support units that essentially have no attack but provide support for the first round (and yes I realize you could try to do something around 0 strength vs 0 rolls though that seems kind of funky as really both cases the unit isn't doing any damage so should probably act the same in both cases). This is also more complex as things like checking potential air unit landing spots gets difficult (isSuicide air units are not counted towards needing landing spots like missiles for example but if you then would have some sort of isSuicideOnAttack unit that only suicided if a supporting unit was also there that would all need to be checked in some way to see if they do need a landing spot and could change based on the order that you move units into the territory even).

So I think you could do this probably from a suicideOnAttack standpoint as you just wouldn't move those shell units into a territory if you didn't have the support unit to give them rolls/strength. But on defense it wouldn't work as they would still suicide (though maybe you could do some kind of trigger to turn off isSuicide if they aren't in a territory with their "artillery" unit). I think more thought and effort would need to go into creating a system like this.

Cernel

@redrum said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

@Cernel said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

Are they supportable (the current isSuicide is not)?

If they roll alongside the normal units (non-firststrike) then yes, if they roll with firststrike then depends if other firststrike can receive support (not sure whether that's currently possible and TWW has tried this for subs but it either isn't supported right now or there is some bug).

If the suicide unit has 0 dice rolls, will it suicide anyways or not?

Yes.

If the suicide unit has positive dice rolls, but 0 value, will it suicide or not?

Yes.

Personally, I believe the most interesting user case is having a suicide "shell" unit that has 0 rolls and is supported by a non suicide "artillery" unit, giving the "shell" unit 1 roll, the "shell" unit actually suiciding only if having 1 (or more) roll (not if having 0 rolls). Would your system allow for this?

Not fully. This tends to conflict with how Frostion is trying to use support units that essentially have no attack but provide support for the first round (and yes I realize you could try to do something around 0 strength vs 0 rolls though that seems kind of funky as really both cases the unit isn't doing any damage so should probably act the same in both cases). This is also more complex as things like checking potential air unit landing spots gets difficult (isSuicide air units are not counted towards needing landing spots like missiles for example but if you then would have some sort of isSuicideOnAttack unit that only suicided if a supporting unit was also there that would all need to be checked in some way to see if they do need a landing spot and could change based on the order that you move units into the territory even).

So I think you could do this probably from a suicideOnAttack standpoint as you just wouldn't move those shell units into a territory if you didn't have the support unit to give them rolls/strength. But on defense it wouldn't work as they would still suicide (though maybe you could do some kind of trigger to turn off isSuicide if they aren't in a territory with their "artillery" unit). I think more thought and effort would need to go into creating a system like this.

Ok. Then this basically would keep all the system as it is now except only allowing regular suicide units to be not first strike and give/receive support.

What you are saying regarding artillery-shell is not viable, as, then, you cannot have 1 artillery and 3 shells in attack, one shell being fired each one the first 3 combat rounds, nor you can have artillery and shells seriously working in defence, which would make no sense, as it's not like artillery is not used when you defend.

I any case, I believe not representing ammunition consumption is the main reason why TripleA cannot have minimally seriously realistic WWI and later games, so I was wondering if the feature could have opened some for that.

redrum

@Cernel said in suicide/munitions unit with support?:

Ok. Then this basically would keep all the system as it is now except only allowing regular suicide units to be not first strike and give/receive support.

Correct. It also breaks the isSuicide unit option into attack and defense as often you don't want units to be suicide in both cases and allows this to be set on a per unit type basis rather than a global property.

What you are saying regarding artillery-shell is not viable, as, then, you cannot have 1 artillery and 3 shells in attack, one shell being fired each one the first 3 combat rounds, nor you can have artillery and shells seriously working in defence, which would make no sense, as it's not like artillery is not used when you defend.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Correct that wouldn't be possible but that just highlights even more that things like air landing spots would become more complex and we'd probably need to make some assumptions as in that case the number of rounds the battle lasts would determine how many are guaranteed to suicide. Would probably need to just assume that any suicide units that aren't guaranteed to suicide would require a landing spot.

I any case, I believe not representing ammunition consumption is the main reason why TripleA cannot have minimally seriously realistic WWI and later games, so I was wondering if the feature could have opened some for that.

I think its a good concept and a good separate feature request. It would also help to have a map that would be looking to immediately use it as that would provide a way to better test it.