Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows
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@Cernel all your terms are vague. They reffer to a perspective of time. Except the problem is your using your own perspective. I cant explain further than that glhf my fr
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I'm a teacher. I could see a test question asking "which of the following words best describes the wars between Rome and Carthage?
a)Antique
b)Ancient
c)Old
d)FeralAnd the correct answer is b)Ancient. This isn't subjective, the better word when speaking English in 2017 is Ancient. Antique is wrong because that word is not commonly used with that meaning
When I read the name Revolutional, it sounds like this category will contain maps than revolutionized tripleA. Or maybe maps that are going in circles around the sun? Nothing about that word implies that time period. If the variety of other words suggested (Colonial seems pretty reasonable to me) don't work, you should simply name the category "1492 to 1914".
We don't need a "Feral" Category. We can put Jurassic into Fantasy/Sci-Fi
We don't need an alternate history category. Isn't every ww2 map alternate history? Several of them make no effort whatsoever to recreate the events, or even start with accurate borders.
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@CrazyG eloquent as always and well written cg
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I don't want to start a debate, but ...
... I just want to point out that "Antique" in some languages refers to the Greek and Roman age. So this might be the reason that some people find "Antique" to be a reasonable term. Like in Danish: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntikkenAlso in danish, when Antique is used as a very broad term, anything before Antique is Prehistoric and anything after is Medieval. But some times the word "oldtid" (ancient/old times) is used for the ancient mesopotamian and egyptian times within recorded history.
No wonder people can have different views on this period listing
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@Frostion I think the main real ? here is what terms can be easily understood by all with current English language.
Example - "Cute" in an old dictionary from the forties as I recall meant short, fat, ugly, and bow legged.
- Now of course it means an attractive comely young bar maid.I think ya get the point that the English language evolves as does all languages. What needs to be determined is terms that are easily understood by all. Just my 2 cents
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@Frostion
In the past Antique probably meant something closer to its Danish/German counterpart, but the language evolved. Antique is usually used as a noun, antiques are technically supposed to be at least 100 years old, but commonly you see "Antique shops" selling things from the 70's and 80's. Its by far the most common way to see the word used (in the USA and Canada at least). I've never heard someone use it to describe a time period -
If the multiple category thing feels too wordy, could just use a few prefixes. Like if you want a category that describes everything before or after the middle ages, you could just say Pre-Medieval or Post-Medieval, or something along those lines. Or you know, if you want something later in tame Pre-Industrial or Pre-Modern or the like. All the naming conventions are pretty Eurocentric, even the straight dates, but dates are easy to work with. Maybe something like Pre-20th Century?
I'd agree that a category like Classical probably isn't necessary. Classics is too specific anyway, for as much as I dig the Greeks and Romans (and that was my undergraduate major, so I feel like kind of a turncoat saying so, but its just a game here). Ancient is more generic and seems somehow more serviceable for anything well ancient. Better to have a broader umbrella for most of these, unless there's like a flurry of map making going down for all these other others eras. To me Antique suggests objects, like I hear antique and I think jars and chairs and whatnot, as CrazyG mentioned. Maybe if wewant to keep that one just go with Antiquity? The adjective Revolutional also sounds marked to me. I hear that word and strain to hear Revolutionary or something else instead. The less common usages feel somehow off when I read down the list, even if they mean more or less the same thing. In practical terms it probably just comes down to games set during the Second World War, and games that aren't haha. But a more expansive catalog for the other categories couldn't hurt.
Right now you basically have historical maps set before the Age of Discovery, those set after it, 3 categories for stuff in the 20th century (Before, During, and After WWII), and then a large category of non-historical/fictional settings. Seems good to me. Probably doesn't matter what you call them, if the dates are there most people will know what they're getting into.
I still dig that idea about the tags and filters, so that it can be more dynamic and reorganized according to different criteria later on.
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@Black_Elk "Age of Discovery" is interesting, but I want to avoid using stuff that has to start with "Age of", so I need terms that are self-sufficient, but probably this is not needed, as this seems just a subset of "Colonial".
I'm thinking your multiple category suggestion might be the only viable choice and I prefer it over pre-something or post-something. Likely we should assure the multiple category to be never more than 3 total.
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So, going with the @Black_Elk suggestion of having multiple named single categories, as a mean to achieve the aim both to keep a low number of them and to be able to find good names for the same, here are my latest suggestions:
1.Ancient/Medieval (about 3000 BC until 1492)
2.Colonial/Enlightenment/Steam (1492-1914)
3.WW1 (1914-1929)
4.WW2 (1929-1945)
5.ColdWar/Contemporary (1945 today)
6.Multi-Age (at least two of the above fully covered)
7.Fictional (any mainly or totally fictional settings, comprising any settings before recorded human history)
8.Abstract (maps not aiming at representing any settings)Opinions? Any better 1492-1914 label than Colonial/Enlightenment/Steam (I would prefer stuff that about stops before and after; so not Industrial, that goes on after 1914 (I know that "steam" kind of does too)).
p.s.: I agree moving "Jurassic", as well as any feral maps we might see in the future, to "Fictional", in my suggested list. I'm anyway not sure where it should start, as I guess if someone wants to make a map with homo habilis (I know I should say homines habiles) going around that may be arguable if all have to start with the homo sapiens or maybe a map of neanderthals vs sapiens or whatever in 100,000 BC. Anyways, I'm guessing I'm keeping Primeval or Prehistory out too, as one may argue making a map in Prehistory is about the same as making a Feral one.
So let's say we start with the Sumerian, and anything before is Fictional.
In a way, having a setting before recorded human history is almost the same as guessing what will happen in the future. -
As I said, I'm not sure "Fictional" is a good term, and probably too broad, but like "Fantasy/Science-Fiction" would leave out all the things that are not part of real ages nor of these genres (like alternative but regular worlds, just not our own; for example, Neuschwabenland, that of course it is not this thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Swabia), plus I've a strong personal preference that extremely fictional stuff like Zombieland or Steampunk go there, instead of in its own timeline.
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@Cernel
I know that setting fixed years on categories might seem reasonable when making a list of periods. But I don’t think it would be good to list dates anywhere in conjunction to the map list. For example, a WW1 game might start out pre 1914 if the map has some intention that included a political prelude or other actions before the war breaks out. Same would apply if a map wanted to simulate the Age of Discovery and start out from scratch, before 1942. I would say that the most important thing when categorizing maps is the “theme”. If it is a WW1 themed map, it should be under WW1. If the map theme is related to colonial times, then the map could be colonial.Multi Age is redundant as I see it. Even if a map would span like WW1 and WW2 and somehow have units that represented both wars, the first and starting theme (WW1) could just be the determining factor. In the case of Age of Tribes, that spans many periods, I still see the original “Primeval” start at the primary, and therefore it would just be Ancient. (Even though the map can also be played as and include futuristic/sci-fi elements.)
Fiction? TripleA is a game. All events happening in all maps are fiction, including all WW2 maps, just like every WW2 movie is fiction. It would not make sense to have a “Fictional” category.
Fantasy and sci-fi seem to be pretty accepted terms in media and literature to represent futuristic and/or fantastic themed stuff. Everyone knows the words, what it is, and have a pretty good idea about what to expect. Again, every TripleA map playthrough is fiction, but not all maps make use of futuristic or fantastic elements.
Modern? People are not historians. The primary understanding of this word is something ”of or relating to present and recent time; not ancient or remote” (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/modern) Also, maybe for this reason, high end games that let players progress through time, like Empire Earth, use the word modern in this way (http://empireearth.wikia.com/wiki/Epoch), as do Forge of Empires (http://forgeofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Ages) and Rise of Nations (http://riseofnations.wikia.com/wiki/Ages).
Based on that, I would modify your list to this:
1. Ancient
2. Medieval
3. Colonial
4. WW1
5. WW2
6. Modern
7. Sci-Fi
8. Fantasy
9. AbstractNeuschwabenland – I would say it is WW2 themed. Fictional maybe, but so is all other WW2 maps.
Zombies – I would say Sci-fi. Just as alien invasion movies, meteor strike movies, end of the world movies etc. these movies are labeled horror/sci-fi, sci-fi/drama, sci-fi/action etc. Zombies are after all mostly a result of some science experiment gone wrong, or the whole plot is about some scientific solution to the zombie-problem.
Steampunk – “Steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction or science fantasy that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery.” – wiki. I would say that if there is the slightest degree of magic or fantasy in the map’s universe, then it is fantasy, if not magic, then it is sci-fi. -
@Frostion said in Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows:
Based on that, I would modify your list to this:
1. Ancient
2. Medieval
3. Colonial
4. WW1
5. WW2
6. Modern
7. Sci-Fi
8. Fantasy
9. AbstractNeuschwabenland – I would say it is WW2 themed. Fictional maybe, but so is all other WW2 maps.
Zombies – I would say Sci-fi. Just as alien invasion movies, meteor strike movies, end of the world movies etc. these movies are labeled horror/sci-fi, sci-fi/drama, sci-fi/action etc. Zombies are after all mostly a result of some science experiment gone wrong, or the whole plot is about some scientific solution to the zombie-problem.
Steampunk – “Steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction or science fantasy that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery.” – wiki. I would say that if there is the slightest degree of magic or fantasy in the map’s universe, then it is fantasy, if not magic, then it is sci-fi.That list looks great to me.
Here is what I would do. Rather than just sort the maps into categories, we use a system of tags. Each map has at least 1 genre tag, but can have more as well. So Age of Tribes could fall under Ancient, Medieval, Colonial, WW1, Modern, and Sci-Fi. It would appear under any of those columns
Steampunk is sci-fi and ww1
Neuschwabenland is abstract and ww2.
This is a flexible system that we can easily maintain and adjust long term. Any map should be able to fit into one of those 9, and by having more than 1 we accommodate weird maps (like if someone creates ww2 with vampires)
Long term, we could add an advanced search feature and additional tags, for things like map size, year created, play time, etc
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@Frostion First of all, does this mean that both you and @CrazyG dislike the proposal of having multiple names for a same category? I went with it, because, when @Black_Elk proposed it, it didn't seem that anyone, but partially me, was against it. Of course, silence doesn't mean much; so that was just my guess.
I think a system of possible multiple tags won't work well on long term, because, then, when new maps get uploaded, people have different views or just don't know or don't care about the system.
I believe it is preferable a system in which each map must be associated to 1 of the categories at this topic and can't have less than 1 nor more than 1. This should cut down problems overtime, with the system not getting properly followed, by forcing everyone to use it about the same way.Also, this was meant to be a linear proposal, in that these categories would all be on the same level, and the not-timeline related ones are meant to classify only those maps that you don't want to see or you can't classify in a real timeline.
This is probably the major reason why I prefer not having Fantasy vs Science-Fiction distinction, but this category was more like meant to provide an "Others" place for anything that it is not real timeline but has its own fictional setting, thus not purely abstract.
This, at the end, boils down to personal preferences, in that I think that, if you click on a real timeline, all those maps being Sci-Fi or Fantasy or otherwise strongly fictional should not be presented; thus, I don't feel the need of having overlapping categories between real timeline and fantasy stuff.So, for the above reasons, my preference is avoiding the multiple tags thing, and forcing all maps to have 1 of these tags, no more, no less.
In particular, I don't like the idea of having multiple tags for real timeline scenarios, like a game tagged both "Colonial" and "WW1", as there will be games that overlap (for example, Feudal Japan can be seen as overlapping "Medieval" and "Colonial"), and I think it is preferable that a single setting decision is forced upon them. Games like "Age of Tribes" are going to be very few, most likely, and I'd rather go with a "Multi-Age" tag or just having them starting with the first era, as @Frostion prefers, instead of allowing multiple tags.
Then, in another topic, one can make another set of categories to categorise maps based on their level of "historicity" or on this or that fictional genre, and this second layer can, then, overlap with what at this topic.
Here, in my mind, the matter was to remain focused on real timeline categorisation, thus mostly why I preferred a single other section where to pack together all those maps that are not part of any timeline or that are just too fictional to keep them there (of course, this is highly subjective, where to draw a limit, on each case).But, if there is a general preference on having "Science-Fiction" and "Fantasy" instead of a single "Fictional" category (I know, fictional is not a good name), as it seems there is, then I advocate the addition of a 3rd category for the settings that are not Fantasy nor Science-Fictional but neither belong to any actual timeline. Current candidates may be (I'm not sure):
Invasion USA
Jurassic
Neuschwabenland
(plus, War of the Relics have only the relics that are mildly fantasy; everything else is not supernatural at all, just a different medieval world; so, if I make a mod in which I remove the relics from War of the Relics, that would be not fantasy anymore at all)I want to point out that this matter is more in perspective because, while currently they are very few, it is totally possible to have a lot of different kind of maps that should not stay in a real timeline, but are not fantasy nor science-fictional.
Personally, I'm definitely against putting "Neuschwabenland" in the WW2 category, but, of course, this is my preference only. Of course, it can be also argued that "Neuschwabenland" is almost abstract.
But this, again, is a matter of personal preference, as I would prefer not having something so extremely fictional like "Invasion USA" inside the recent real timeline, while I seem to understand maybe most would prefer having it.
In my mind, I would try to draw a line (of course, there can not be a line) in that I would put in the timeline maps like "Cold War", in which more or less you have players meant to be the historical ones, and, instead, not having maps like "Invasion USA", in which all the players are really based on pure imagination.So, on the specific matters, I've already mostly answered to all of them, but let's repeat and possibly summarise:
A) Having "Ancient" and "Medieval" instead of a single "Ancient/Medieval" category.
Of course, I'm not strongly against this, as in the first post of this topic I indeed had these exact category, as you can still see (I also had Primeval).
It seemed that the preference was to try to reduce the number of categories but if the preference is splitting Ancient and Medieval that's no problem for me to go back to that.
I assume you are aware that there is only 1 "Medieval" map in total, currently (and I've never seen anyone playing it), plus the two "Feudal Japan" maps, that I believe are better being considered "Medieval" too.
Having "Colonial" instead of "Colonial/Enlightenment/Steam".I personally don't like very much to see like "Napoleonic Empires" tagged as "Colonial", as it has nothing to do with any colonies, aside maybe for the convoy centres on the map, but if people like "Colonial" for this whole time period, that's acceptable to me, I guess.
One may argue that also WW1 was colonial, or the Italian war in East Africa, but, at that point, the process was winding down, so I think that "Colonial" is good to capture 1492 to 1914, as a timeline, as I've already said.C) Having "Modern" instead of "ColdWar/Contemporary".
As I've already said multiple times, this is just an absolute no for me. The meaning of "Medieval" itself is of an age in between of "Ancient" and "Modern". I won't simply have in a post made by me "Modern" with the meaning of 1945 onwards (like if before 1945 it was not modern), for the reasons I've already explained. Somebody else has to do that, and I believe I will be always strongly against.
D) Not having "Multi-Age", but just always using the starting age.
Multi Age is redundant as I see it. Even if a map would span like WW1 and WW2 and somehow have units that represented both wars, the first and starting theme (WW1) could just be the determining factor. In the case of Age of Tribes, that spans many periods, I still see the original “Primeval” start at the primary, and therefore it would just be Ancient. (Even though the map can also be played as and include futuristic/sci-fi elements.)
Fine for me, as the only map in this category might be "Age of Tribes", but I want to point out, in this case, that you don't have a starting age for "Age of Tribes", because that starts before "Ancient" (definitely "Ancient" excludes prehistory). So that should go the same way as "Jurassic" (before "Ancient").
So, this would be the compromise that I think I would be fine with, if most people are sure multiple names per categories are not wanted (?):
- Ancient
- Medieval
- Colonial
- WW1
- WW2
- Contemporary
- Others
- Abstract
(I'd not exclude merging Ancient and Medieval into a same "Ancient/Medieval" category, still)
Important Note: It should be specified that "Others" should never be used for any settings believed to be somewhere in between of Ancient and Contemporary, but one of the first 6 must be chosen.
"Others" means "Other Scenarios", while "Abstract" means "No Scenarios" (of course, the distinction is blurred, but I think it should be still good to have, but merging "Others" and "Abstract" into just "Others" is a possibility too).
As said, I would put in "Others" also those scenarios that are so much fanciful that I would not want to see them listed in a regular timeline, like Zombieland.Then, another set of categories, different from this one, can be made, to define what Fantasy etc. is, and they can overlap, as @CrazyG is proposing.
This way, this matter can the kept linear, and another set of categories can be made, for better definining the rest.If at the end my views are too far away from what seems to be the average, anyone feel free to take over this process, and define a generally preferred set of scenarios, either in this same topic or in a new one, and good luck.
I feel my participation is winding down here, anyways, as pretty much all the matters have been covered and we are to some extent going in circles. There is no point keeping switching "Modern" into and out in the list for 1945+; you know that I strongly believe it is not a good definition for it; if most others believe it is, anyone who want to develop anything out of this discussion can go ahead with it.
At this point, it will be eventually up to a developer to take over this discussion and, if wanted, turn it into something. Good luck everyone; glad to have discussed this matter and now you know my points of view well enough, I believe.
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To be clear, all my ideas on 1945+ are "Contemporary", "Recent" or "ColdWar/Contemporary". I've not a strong preference for any of these over the others.
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@Cernel
To be clear, modern is a more accurate term than any of those.There are wars in this time period unrelated to the cold war, naming it cold war would be objectively incorrect. Contemporary war is generally used to describe a war that is ongoing, so something like the Vietnam war isn't contemporary. Recent is a far more unclear term. If you search for either "recent war" or "contemporary war", the first result is a list of ongoing armed conflicts.
The Wikipedia page named "Modern Warfare" lists all major wars from ww2 to the present, there is nothing inaccurate about the term "modern" to describe these wars.
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@Cernel
I think it is good that this discussion has been brought up, and I think it is needed. I would think that both the “Download Maps” and the “Select Maps/Select a Game” windows would benefit greatly from some sort of general sorting, especially when one has many downloaded maps. I never liked the “High Quality” and “Good Quality” sorting of maps in download. The info about quality maybe OK, but it would be better as a tag than a category.I think a tag-system like @CrazyG proposes would be great. It could help players see what to expect from a map, and if the future brings some sort of search or sorting option in the map windows, then this would be awesome.
“multiple names for a same category” If this means like a Medival/Renasance and Sci-Fi/Fantsy, then yes, I dont like it. For the simplicity I would say a single word for a single category. This is how other games seem to do it, and nothing prevents TripleA from also sticking to one word descriptions.
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@CrazyG said in Map Scenario Categories In Download Windows:
There are wars in this time period unrelated to the cold war, naming it cold war would be objectively incorrect.
For anyone info, in my list you would have been supposed to have, for example, the "WW2" label for anything happening in that period, however defined, even if unrelated to WW2, as there is not another scenario in between of WW1 and WW2, nor those were supposed to go in another category or be without.
So, to repeat the concept, anything from Ancient to today was supposed to get one of the first labels regardless, unless too unreal.
The labels were supposed to be just labels and you would have had to pick one, based mainily on the warfare similarities; so also you would get the "Colonial" for stuff that has nothing to do with any colonies or colonisations, if in that time period or if the other labels are no better. -
Anyways, it is apparent that the majority prefers this being done with a series of concepts that I don't share; so, it is time for me to give up. My views are already more than fully documented.
However this will go, if it will, I still suggest each map that it is considered belonging to the real timeline to be restricted to have 1 label only, of those, to pick amongst the ones in list, manily for warfare similarities, and not allowed to have multiple nor nothing. -
@Cernel What's the biggest benefit you see to categorizing the maps? Is it discovery? Would you envision the category to be listed anywhere other than the download screen?
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@LaFayette Ideally, both in the download (more important) and the select map (less important) screens would have various tags such as map category (others could be things like number of players, average duration, average complexity, etc). Main purpose would be providing users a better way of searching for maps they would be interested in playing. I think the best example I can think of is something like https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35052/axis-allies-anniversary-edition. Essentially high level meta data info that could then be used for sorting/filtering maps.
