Tournament of Champions (Season 4) for AA 50 Anniversary '41 version
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Hello Raville and General_Zod,
OK, your particular case has been reviewed deeply by 3 expert players, and discussed quite a bit. We have read your various comments, chat logs, and reviewed the map.
This is a VERY DIFFICULT one to assess, as the decision impacts the entire outcome of the game, and not just one particular battle. As such, we will outline the facts and discuss key information that we considered:
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On one hand, it is clear that both players agreed that "no edits" would be allowed during the game. This is an established fact, and edits are indeed a sensitive matter throughout the game, as we have all likely forgotten to move an AA, or to place a naval unit to block an attacking fleet, etc., etc. It's a common problem, but in tournaments, players need to be as detailed oriented as possible with the combat, and non-combat moves.
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However, for avoidance of doubt, this does not meet the pure definition of an edit, but rather, it is a very unique and specific problem which arose because of the OOL selection in an incredibly important battle in Japan. In fact, this one OOL decision is, in itself, the key determinant in who wins the game. It is incredibly important to highlight that this exact contingency has already been fully anticipated in the rules for the tournaments, and the rules are posted at the following link:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/394/triplea-rules-for-anniversary-edition-tournaments
For convenience, I quote the relevant section, with emphasis on the key portion:
Order Of Loss in battles (OOL)
In general first the inexpensive (IPC value) and weaker defending units are removed, and only after that the more expensive units. The software automatically removes both attacking and defending units according to the standard-OOL. The attacker has the possibility to manually correct the OOL for his units. He may do this by manually correcting the appropriate fields. However, if he deviates from the standard-OOL he has to notify his opponent before moving on with rolling the dice. The most efficient way to do so is by sending an email to your opponent BEFORE continuing.Example: Attack on GER, 4th battle round: 1arm 4ftr 1bmb (attacking) vs 1inf 2ftr (defending). Say the defense scores two hits, then the software will automatically remove the tank and one of the fighters as losses. If the attacker prefers to conquer the territory instead of just clearing it, he will rather want to keep the tank and sacrifice a second fighter. He changes this manually,and then he continues rolling. Of course, the attacker is not allowed to change the order of loss for the defender, except the defender specifically told him to do so before. Under certain circumstances a "OOL-stop" is mandatory. In this case the attacker rolls the dice for his attacking units and then must ask his opponent for the OOL. Only after the OOL has been communicated the battle continues. This principle holds for every round of combat unless the defender states an OOL for the entire fight.- We next reviewed the communication between players, as this was a live game. Fortunately, we could review the exact chat BEFORE the battle, which included the following communication, for reference:
(6:13:17 AM) General_Zod: do u know if that 1 british inf hit in japann, it was gg
(6:13:38 AM) General_Zod: even now it comes down to 1 aashot
(6:14:01 AM) General_Zod: if u miss it tokyo falls
(6:14:04 AM) Raville: Not really, dont forget AA
(6:14:14 AM) General_Zod: im not forgetting
(6:14:28 AM) General_Zod: it comes down to 1 aashot
(6:14:41 AM) General_Zod: if u kill 2 i have 33%
(6:14:50 AM) General_Zod: if u kill one i have 100%
(6:15:02 AM) General_Zod: or like 995
(6:15:06 AM) General_Zod: 99%
(6:16:14 AM) General_Zod: any ways the whole game sits on one aashot
(6:16:18 AM) General_Zod: phew
(6:16:20 AM) General_Zod: lol
(6:16:40 AM) General_Zod: i hope my luck was building for this on eshot
(6:20:17 AM) Raville: no much to think just act
(6:20:31 AM) General_Zod: im planning for failure
(6:20:38 AM) General_Zod: i need back up plan
(6:21:22 AM) General_Zod: im gonna try, just its all on if u hit 4
(6:21:39 AM) General_Zod: 10air
(6:22:13 AM) General_Zod: so its 33%
(6:22:16 AM) General_Zod: for me
(6:22:28 AM) General_Zod: worth it though
(6:22:43 AM) General_Zod: i will never get the shot this good again
(6:25:00 AM) Raville: go then pls
(6:26:13 AM) General_Zod: almost ready
(6:35:06 AM) General_Zod: 100%
(6:35:09 AM) General_Zod: gg
(6:37:00 AM) Raville: no
(6:37:03 AM) General_Zod: i click too fastWe highlight a few parts of the discussion to establish a fact pattern of what the players were thinking and mutually understanding before the battle began, with the parts in bold illuminating the understanding between the players.
For example, it is clear that General_Zod had run the calculations that the # of AA hits had a material impact on whether or not the battle would have succeeded, and that Raville had done so as well. It is clear that the AA gun hit ONE plane, which ensured that General_Zod would win the battle.
HOWEVER, it is VERY important to highlight that General_Zod was ASSUMING a non-standard OOL for the ENTIRE battle, as the the attack started with 3 bombers + 7 fighters + 3 infantry + 1 tank. Given the high number of attacking aircraft, the battle could not have succeeded with just air surviving and the ground units not surviving.
Both Raville and General_Zod's statements appear to vindicate the fact that this was mutually understood, by Raville's staement, "not really, don't forget AA" and General's Zods statement, "99%, any ways the whole game sits on one AA shot"
This chain of communication implies that BOTH players understood the specific serious of events that would, or would not, lead to a binary outcome in this most important battle.
In conclusion:
First and foremost, this is a very unfortunate incident for both of you, and probably NOT something that will ever happen again in your remaining A&A games in your entire life! As such, the judges have to determine what is the least unfair outcome to each respective person.
Therefore, the following has been determined:
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this particular dispute is NOT an edit request, as technically is it is purely a OOL issue at the very last stage of a highly critical battle in the game.
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The pre-established rule on OOL is crystal clear that, per the rules, "the attacker has the possibility to manually correct the OOL for his units. He may do this by manually correcting the appropriate fields. However, if he deviates from the standard-OOL he has to notify his opponent before moving on with rolling the dice." The judges have determined that the extensive and detailed discussion on OOL BEFORE the battle meets the "spirit" of the rule regarding an amended OOL, given that BOTH players mutually understood the sensitivity of 1 or 2 AA hits in Round 1 of the battle, and the expected result of the battle itself It is VERY important to highlight that, if this communication had NOT occurred, then the actual battle results would stay as-is. However, in THIS case, given that BOTH players mutually understood the outcome of the battle given the various AA contingencies, that the "understood OOL" will hold firm, and that Japan is successfully captured by Geneeral_Zod.
For clarity, and for future reference, the judges will NOT consider such excuses as "I was tired and clicked incorrectly" due to the software, and the ONLY reason that this is considered in General Zod's favor is specifically due to the mutual understanding of the OOL which would, or would not result in the capture of Tokyo As this was the agreed understanding of the OOL at the start of the battle the outcome of the OOL will remain, as previously understood, BEFORE the battle began.
As a final point, we want to emphasize again, that this is a difficult decision for the judges, and the ruling was 2 in favor, and 1 against, so it was indeed a split decision. We hope that both players will continue and move past this difficult decision, as this is a double-elimination tournament, and both players have a 2nd chance to carry-on and win future games.
TripleA Tournament Director
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@deltium said in Tournament of Champions (Season 4) for AA 50 Anniversary '41 version:
First and foremost, this is a very unfortunate incident for both of you, and probably NOT something that will ever happen again in your remaining A&A games in your entire life!
He he.
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@deltium glad to see this resolved,both players played a great game,and i agree with Deltuim and other experts decision,overall and i agree with Prastles comments aswell,gg
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@cernel I think we have seen it a few times whenever we are chatting and the engine shoots the ground unit
Thus I am sure this discussion will occur again just possibly without such epic consequences ... -
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@raville are u saying GEN ZOD went into settings of map xml/coding etc while playing u? lol
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I wonder what would be the practice if the misclick would happen not at the very last choice of the battle, as that would be not strictly editable.
@Deltium
If not already there, maybe you want to add an official suggestion, for live games, to assure the:
Game/Engine Settings/Space bar confirms Casualties: "False"@General_Zod
Did you have that setting True or False, during this game? It should be what you have now, if you haven't changed it. Just curious. -
@raville Hopefully a developer will answer you but, meanwhile, I recall Veqryn said that the dice, for live games in the lobby, are rolled by both terminals and somwhat added up to give the actual result (no idea if this is right or how that works, and doubt @General_Zod has an idea, either). For the savegame, of course that can be changed; so, you either have to recall it or take and reload it yourself. General suggestion has always been that, for a strictly competitive match up, the absolutely safe way is PBF on the official TripleA forum (currently, this one).
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@cernel simple point is OOL means nothing in a live game as you just eloquently pointed out it is sadly still possible to click through.
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@raville i think sticking to edit /no edition problem is your best point,speaking of % of battle and game play and anything else makes u look bad
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@general_zod sigh your not being helpful ...
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@general_zod I guess i can just see both sides of the story. You clearly knew you needed to save a land unit going into the battle. Apparently you clicked through it while chatting? Either way YOU both AGREED TO NO EDITS! Thus (which i never do since we are all human) you are both correct. You also won a 29% battle to be blunt. So is he wrong with requesting you not to edit?
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I'm not debating that, anymore.
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@raville @General_Zod I hope you both bury the hatchet and move on. I will not overrule the judges decision but i will say this OOL MEANS nothing in a live game.. PBEM yes In alive game the player is responsible for his own ool.
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Hypthetical question.
If an attacking player chooses fighters and bombers as casualties before a tank for 2 combat rounds. What do you think that same player will do on combat round 3 of that same battle? Note this player destroyed all enemy units on the above mentioned combat round 3. Also note the territory is a capital. Also note this likely ends the game.
Hmm, I wonder will the player all of a sudden change his established pattern of ool?
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@general_zod this isn't the point gz. It's a live game you pick your own OOL. The main reason I am debating this is @cernel and I pointed this out years ago. We were ignored. Which means this will continue to occur every tournament forever unless all tourney players agree to allow minor edits.
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@general_zod You are fully aware of this problem. Which means you chatted through your click? I wasn't the one that agreed to no edits... Thus I can see both sides of the fence..
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@prastle Just answer the above question. And I will be happy.
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@general_zod the issue is not about whether anyone thought they didn't understand what you were doing. (Thus why the judges approved your win.) the issue is whether or not an agreed rule base between two opponents can be overruled by the judges ... Especially when you clearly knew what you were doing before the battle commenced... So to extrapolate further does this mean every game that is agreed to no edits needs a ruling from now on in every toc if I accidentally clicked through it? Or does this mean they will fix the engine finally so that ya cant click through while chatting?
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