Tournament of Champions (Season 4) for AA 50 Anniversary '41 version

prastle

@General_Zod @redrum it must be possible for the planes to land by at least 1% otherwise it is kami

prastle

@redrum sorry i said 1% really its .1%

redrum

Here are the official rules from the game manual:

You cannot send air units on “suicide runs,” deliberately moving them into combat with no place to land afterward. If there is any question about whether an attack is a “suicide run,” then in the Combat Move phase, you must declare, prior to rolling any battles, some possible way (however remote the possibility is) for all your attacking air units to land safely that turn. This could include a combination of combat moves. It could also include noncombat moves by a carrier. If it does include noncombat moves by a carrier, then the carrier cannot move in the Combat Move phase.

In order to demonstrate that an air unit MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses. You cannot, however, use a planned retreat of any carrier to demonstrate a possible safe landing zone for any fighter.

If you declared that a carrier will move during the Noncombat Move phase to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter moved in the Combat Move phase, you must follow through and move the carrier to its planned location in the Noncombat Move phase unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed before then.

General_Zod

@prastle

Not to be a pain in the ass, but determining legal or illegal combat moves by the criteria of either >0% or at least 1%, survival of landing aircraft or clearing of sea zones that allow pickup of said aircraft. Leaves openings to interpret rules in a couple ways allowing for exploitations via what is essentially kamikaze.

prastle

@redrum which basically means a .1% chance the ac survives to be able to land the fighters thus why he said if using ll.

Raville

@cernel Hi Cernel, it has been a pleasure to hear from you again, we haven't seen you in lobby wishing you'll come again soon. Greetings to you friend, Raville

prastle

@general_zod @redrum If it were dice this discussion would be moot. Since this is only possible in dice not ll.
MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses.

Panther

@redrum The latest rulebook (of the reprint) elaborates even more on this subject:

*You cannot deliberately send air units into combat situations that place them out of range of a place to land afterward. In the Combat Move phase, prior to rolling any battles, you must be able to demonstrate some possible way (however remote the possibility is) for all your attacking air units to land safely that turn. This could include a combination of combat moves. It could also include noncombat moves by a carrier or the mobilization of a new carrier. If it does include noncombat moves by a carrier, then the carrier cannot move in the Combat Move phase.

In order to demonstrate that an air unit MAY have a safe landing zone, you may assume that all of your attacking rolls will be hits, and all defending rolls will be misses. You cannot, however, use a planned retreat of any carrier to demonstrate a possible safe landing zone for any fighter. Once possible landing spaces for all attacking air units have been demonstrated, you have no obligation to guarantee those landing zones for air units in the course of battle. For example, aircraft carriers
may freely retreat or be taken as casualties, even if doing so leaves air units with no place to land after combat (such air units will be destroyed at the end of the Noncombat Move phase). However, during Noncombat Movement you must provide for safe landing of as many air units as remains possible after all combats are resolved.

If you declared that a carrier will move during the Noncombat Move phase to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter moved in the Combat Move phase, you must follow through and move the carrier to its planned location in the Noncombat Move phase unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed before then or a combat required to clear an intervening sea zone failed to do so. Likewise, if you declared that a new carrier will be mobilized to provide a safe landing zone for a fighter, it must be mobilized in that sea zone unless the fighter has landed safely elsewhere or has been destroyed.*

prastle

@Panther yes in dice it is a moot point you can assume acs will live. We cant do that in ll thus the calc of .1%

General_Zod

@prastle @Panther
Yes those rules seem to settle it for dice games. Are they also intended for LL games.

And on side note is the battle calculator inside triple A game the only officially allowed demonstration of results?

prastle

@general_zod yes he said that as calculated by battle calc using ll

General_Zod

What ever it is fine. As long as its clearly stated to avoid arguments or blunders.

prastle

@general_zod I haven't added above because I was hoping Delt had a copy of the long winded version. but after all this i will post the short version above

General_Zod

@prastle
@prastle, I re-read the replies, I can't find the reference to below. Can you quote it for me. Thanks.

@prastle said in Tournament of Champions (Season 4) for AA 50 Anniversary '41 version:

@general_zod yes he said that as calculated by battle calc using ll

prastle

@general_zod read the edited final line in the first post above taken from v2 toc

https://forums.triplea-game.org/post/336

redrum

@prastle Those definitely aren't the standard rules and relying on the battle calc results in any part of the rules is a bad idea. Given that @Deltium organized the tournament though its up to him.

While the official A&A rules that I and @Panther posted are originally written based on dice, I believe its a pretty accepted standard that LL is treated the same as dice when doing carrier/fighter movement. Though I wish the official rules stated it differently and didn't reference dice rolls but that they just need to enter the battle locations.

prastle

@redrum what you are saying is impossible red since in ll they can add to an auto hit
thus
you cant assume the defending units all missed
thus deltium's .1% rule

prastle

@redrum also to clarify the last 3 tocs have been played this way as well I believe bayders but i can check with him to confirm that if you wish?

General_Zod

Here's one more for ya. If we do in fact use calculations to determine eligible CM's in a LL game.

I'm definitely not a mathematician so, correct me if I'm wrong.

The calculations inside the triple A battle calculator are not guaranteed to give the same result each time a battle is calculated as long as there's some luck involved. There is variance in results between calculations of the same battle. How much also depends on the run counts setting in the BC.

Can we also address how to handle this as well. (I suggest arbitration if ever got to this.)

eg. My calculation says 100% not possible, and opponents calculation says 99.1% not possible. (Yikes, this also involves a bit of honor system and trust. )

What is the official allowable margin of discrepancies between calculations anyways?

What shall we set run counts setting to?

Btw for obvious reasons, I wish I didn't think of this one, lol. But what can I say, I like to share.

redrum

@general_zod Exactly that's what I was getting at. The calc just does a number of simulations and you can even change the default number of simulations. Which is why the carrier should just have to enter battle and not worry about if it has >0% survival chance.