Flames and Steel (official thread)
-
@Cernel
In 1941 GCD, there are 4 types of factory.- Industry-Hvy: Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, in home TT
- Industry-Med: Convoy/Transport, Destroyer, in Hawaii & Truk
- Industry-Lgt: Infantry, Artillery, no ships
- Base-Camp: Infantry, no ships
Eh, I'm not an expert, but I doubt that a single transport or destroyer was ever built in Hawaii during the war. I would be surprised if there was any artillery production either. Without knowing the facts, I feel almost sure Hawaii should be either a Base-Camp or nothing at all just based on my superficial knowledge of what was Hawaii at the time.
-
@Cernel
You are correct, no ships were produced, but a lot were repaired and resupplied, same for Truk.Not my choice but there for game play.
Even so, the map can be edited to your taste.
-
The way I see things is this.
-
I am unwilling to accept an outcome in which the U.S. goes all-in on either KJF or KGF. I don't want either to be the dominant American strategy.
-
I am unwilling to add significantly more complexity to this map than I have already created. Once someone gets used to the map, I don't want it to feel any more complex than Global. Ideally a little less complex due to being less technical.
-
A solution which might make sense for some other map, such as choking off unit placement, might not be a good fit for this map. In WWII, German and Japanese military aircraft production roughly tripled between 1942 and 1944, while American military aircraft production doubled. My map doesn't simulate the entirety of that, but it does simulate a good portion.
-
I feel that my biggest contribution to the community is the new rules set.
-
I don't want people to think of this particular map as the end-all, be-all, with respect to this rules set. If someone else wants to create a different map using the same rules as Flames and Steel, I'd highly encourage them to do so!
-
This map does need to be fun, and a good representation of the rules set.
-
You don't get much benefit from technology in the early game. That's not the way the map is designed. You have a strategy for your technology, but that strategy needs time to unfold. As the game progresses your technological strategy becomes more relevant.
-
This map will not work as intended if the U.S. goes either KGF or KJF. Japan just got an exciting new technology which improves its Yamato battleships? Great! Wonderful. Too bad Japan lost its entire navy two rounds ago. Now it's just hoping to hold Tokyo for as long as it can.
-
This map is the first to use this rules set. (Or anything remotely like this rules set.) That means I need to be very careful about the risks I accept. The map could fail because the rules set wasn't what people wanted. Or because the GUI fell short. I can minimize those risks but I can't avoid them. But there are other risks which are completely avoidable. The risk the map becomes another KGF or KJF map. If I create more complexity to avoid KJF/KGF, the map could get rejected due to the added complexity. There is the risk that the added complexity might not actually prevent KGF/KJF. There is no reason for me to accept risks like these when I have the option of avoiding them.
-
There is a time and a place for accepting the risks I'd described in 9. If Flames and Steel proves itself, if it develops a loyal group of players, then someone could come along with a map based on the Flames and Steel rules. Maybe this new map has one United States instead of two, and maybe it has subtle but effective ways of preventing KGF or KJF.
-
KGF/KJF make the world smaller. They make the game simpler, less interesting, with fewer fronts. In late game WAW, Germany has a fleet in the North Atlantic and an army in Asia. European Axis supports that army and that navy. The Allies have their own opposing army, and their own opposing navy. A simplified game like that is far less interesting than the early game had been. Everything wrong with late game WAW could have been fixed by one simple expedient: splitting the United States in half!
-
-
Well, it's not that splitting the United States in half is on its own certainly avoids focusing on one ocean only, especially not on the Atlantic. If you go with historical productions at the time (As I said, the western part was a lot more backward, underpopulated and poorer than it is now not only absolutely but also relatively to the eastern part.), on the account that in 1940 Pacific (meaning California + Oregon + Washington) had 9,682,781 inhabitants and Mountain (meaning Montana + Idaho + Wyoming + Colorado + New Mexico + Arizona + Utah + Nevada) had 4,128,042 inhabitants, for a total of Pacific + Mountain equal to 13,810,823 against a total for the entire United States (back then not comprising Hawaii and Alaska) of 131,669,275, your "West USA" will only have about 10% of the production of your "East USA" (and arguably less since Pacific and even more so Mountain was backward), meaning that "East USA" can still do KGF using directly the 90% of the total production power of the United States which it has and use the 10% of West USA just to produce bombers to go make bombing raids on Germany or some other things like that. Moreover, of course, whatever fleet is already present one side or the other can be sent through the Panama canal in either case, and doing so in a split USA scenario might even be worthwhile for can-openers.
All this means that, in order to go both oceans by splitting USA in two, you will not only have to take the historically wrong decision of having two USAs but also likely distributing production between these two made-up polities in a very unhistorical way.
All this said, I see your point, and I agree that seeing usually the United States playing only one ocean is lame, and I'm not able really to point at a game that fixed that at least amongst the ones I know. (I have not yet taken a deep enough look at @thedog's game, did you? Maybe he did.)
-
Also a "West USA" playing Pacific mostly or only on its own is largely unhistorical. Most of what was used in Pacific was produced in the East, especially if we assume that the East comprises anything east of Panama like Texas, but even only the East Coast was really commissioning most of the ships by far. If you seemingly partially fix it by having Texas and Missouri and such as part of the east, that may bring the west up to 25% of total (have not calculated it), but then I wonder if that does not have the risk that a player may decide to place ships in Texas and New Orleans and go full Atlantic with both West and East together.
-
A divided USA would make the game more disjointed.
Like with a single US, Japan could punch above its weight and force the US to commit more in the Pacific, thus indirectly (and historically) helping Germany by diverting American attention away from the Atlantic. But with a divided US, you can't do such a thing because the US's Atlantic commitments will be fixed, and Japan will be able to do nothing against it.
-
Adding to the west (like you did in the image you posted) also West South Central (Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas) and West North Central (Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota) adds respectively 13,052,218 and 13,490,492 inhabitants for a total of 26,542,710. That added to the 13,810,823 of Pacific + Mountain would total 40,353,533 for "West USA" as you pictured it. That would be the 31% of the total (without Hawaii and Alaska which were however almost irrelevant). This seems indeed in line with a historical distribution of the effort of around 30% on Pacific and 70% on Atlantic but has the challenge that almost 2/3 of the production is not on the actual Pacific + Mountain and you should have very valuable territories in Texas and Louisiana which can be used to place ships and land units so to use West USA in the Atlantic only. I imagine this would be not too hard to balance: it would be just needed to make Pacific the better choice, so to assure that West USA goes Pacific instead of Atlantic, but not enough of a better choice that East USA would decide to join in (by moving ships through the Panama canal while buying plenty of air units). Still, not quite historical considering that most ships used in Pacific were produced in what would be East USA.
-
On another matter, the new air system seems to be working out well. Four bombers per land territory max, along with four fighters max. I was afraid this would create a GUI problem, but that has not been the case.
The Soviets sent their dive bomber against a German army. Granted, that dive bomber got aborted, so no attack. But I think the real time for the Soviets to push back in the sky will come later in the game. The four plane limit is doing its job of giving both sides a reason to fight for control over the sky. Thanks to @vendetta for pushing me on this.
Clever, I hadn’t thought of that as an option. Glad it seems to be working out.
I think the solution to US min-maxing the two theaters of the war might be to give Germany and Japan both some very powerful national objectives that can pay off big in PU output if they manage to fulfill them and put them on a peer level with the US in economic output.
It strays from strict historical realism, but if it’s calibrated right it does mean the US can’t afford to ignore either theater completely - it has to at least put enough forces in to keep one power contained from filling all its objectives while it’s busy trying to knock out the other one.
-
1941GCD has nearly 800 map locations and was written for the solo player from the start.
@Cernel Bare the above in mind, as the TripleA AI cannot produce ships in the East and transfer them to the West coast without constant scripting, so we gave up and put ship building Industry-Hvy(Carriers Battleships) on the West coast.
@kurtgodel7
If only TripleA could do the Bureau of Ships
and allocate ships to theatres. Seriously though that would be a step to far, simpler to put ahistorical industries on the west coast to simulate/achieve the same. -
Well, it's not that splitting the United States in half is on its own certainly avoids focusing on one ocean only, especially not on the Atlantic. If you go with historical productions at the time (As I said, the western part was a lot more backward, underpopulated and poorer than it is now not only absolutely but also relatively to the eastern part.), on the account that in 1940 Pacific (meaning California + Oregon + Washington) had 9,682,781 inhabitants and Mountain (meaning Montana + Idaho + Wyoming + Colorado + New Mexico + Arizona + Utah + Nevada) had 4,128,042 inhabitants, for a total of Pacific + Mountain equal to 13,810,823 against a total for the entire United States (back then not comprising Hawaii and Alaska) of 131,669,275, your "West USA" will only have about 10% of the production of your "East USA" (and arguably less since Pacific and even more so Mountain was backward), meaning that "East USA" can still do KGF using directly the 90% of the total production power of the United States which it has and use the 10% of West USA just to produce bombers to go make bombing raids on Germany or some other things like that. Moreover, of course, whatever fleet is already present one side or the other can be sent through the Panama canal in either case, and doing so in a split USA scenario might even be worthwhile for can-openers.
All this means that, in order to go both oceans by splitting USA in two, you will not only have to take the historically wrong decision of having two USAs but also likely distributing production between these two made-up polities in a very unhistorical way.
All this said, I see your point, and I agree that seeing usually the United States playing only one ocean is lame, and I'm not able really to point at a game that fixed that at least amongst the ones I know. (I have not yet taken a deep enough look at @thedog's game, did you? Maybe he did.)
Good info about regional population sizes. There are two different ways to think about realism here. 1) Realism about the distribution of population and industry between America's East Coast and its West Coast. 2) Realism about how America allocated its war spending.
This latter form of realism would be 33 - 40% spending allocated in the Pacific theater, with 60 - 67% allocated to Europe. I'm more focused on this latter form of realism. In my map, America Pacific has an income of 99, which falls to 90 after Japan's initial expansion. America Atlantic has an income of 130. This compares to a starting income for Germany of 130, the Soviet Union of 200, UK of 149, and Japan of 89. Also, the Soviets have the most MP income, and they can gain still more conscripts by researching recruitment techs. I believe I have understated American income by perhaps 40% versus where it should be historically. This may be necessary for game balance.
Both America Pacific and America Atlantic get two research centers. In my example game they were using these research centers to pursue different research strategies. America Pacific was preparing for naval war; America Atlantic for an air and ground war. Things were trending towards America Atlantic getting Pershing tanks as its special unit, while America Pacific would have been getting fleet carriers. Technology was intended to give each nation its own flavor. It was nice to see the two Americas each get their own flavor, even though they were choosing from the exact same list of available technologies.
-
On another matter, the new air system seems to be working out well. Four bombers per land territory max, along with four fighters max. I was afraid this would create a GUI problem, but that has not been the case.
The Soviets sent their dive bomber against a German army. Granted, that dive bomber got aborted, so no attack. But I think the real time for the Soviets to push back in the sky will come later in the game. The four plane limit is doing its job of giving both sides a reason to fight for control over the sky. Thanks to @vendetta for pushing me on this.
Clever, I hadn’t thought of that as an option. Glad it seems to be working out.
I think the solution to US min-maxing the two theaters of the war might be to give Germany and Japan both some very powerful national objectives that can pay off big in PU output if they manage to fulfill them and put them on a peer level with the US in economic output.
It strays from strict historical realism, but if it’s calibrated right it does mean the US can’t afford to ignore either theater completely - it has to at least put enough forces in to keep one power contained from filling all its objectives while it’s busy trying to knock out the other one.
Yeah. Axis and Allies Naval Miniatures really is a good game. The designers of that game came up with the idea of limiting each sea zone to four air per side. So I can't take any credit for coming up with this.
IIRC, Larry Harris came up with the idea of national objectives for Anniversary Edition, using I think logic similar to yours. I could be wrong--I haven't played a lot of Anniversary Edition--but I suspect this might not have been enough to prevent the U.S. from maxing out one theater while ignoring the other. What I do know is that in his next map, Global, he made a stronger push to prevent the U.S. from maxing out on one theater in particular. That stronger push was victory conditions. The Allies can lose the game on the very same round that they conquer Berlin--if they let Japan take enough victory cities.
If you look at the rules changes from Classic to Revised, I'd say pretty much all of those were good rules changes. Going from Revised to Anniversary Edition there were some potentially good ideas as well. No more transports as cannon fodder, changes to strategic bombing. But the game also became more technical due to having to constantly worry about your own National Objectives, as well as those of your opponents. "My opponent needs to do X to gain an extra 5 PUs. I must not let that happen." I would say Global became more technical due to scrambling, naval bases, air bases, diplomacy, etc. NWO uses the Revised rules and Domination 1914 NML uses Anniversary Edition rules--but without any of the National Objectives.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login