Fallen Empire

alkexr

@prastle didn't know it had a meaning lol

EDIT: I'm open to suggestions for territory names, and please point out if any name sounds stupid or un-English-y. It looks easy to come up with fantasy names. And it is, for the first 100

redrum

@alkexr Interesting tool. Any chance you know some Java instead of C#? They are pretty similar. Only reason I ask is it would be much easier to integrate it as an optional step in the map creator if it was written in Java.

alkexr

@redrum If I did, I would have used that, of course. I want to learn java at some point, but don't expect a java version of my tools in the near future.

alkexr

A Big Announcement

There will be no progress reports any more.

When I announced this map back in January, the goal was to get feedback. So I decided to show off parts of the map that were almost perfectly complete. There are three main problems with this approach. First, it's pretty hard to give meaningful feedback on some pictures designed primarily to be shown off. Second, this more or less forced me into a very suboptimal development process - polishing parts of the map to near perfection while ignoring the rest. Third, and most important, this gives the impression that I actually know what I'm doing. It's just meaningless perfectionism, lack of willingness to share something incomplete, imperfect, that I'm working on.

So I think the best way to adress this problem is to release an early alpha version.

At the moment, the map is not ready even for an early alpha - I don't actually know which files belong where and where the latest version is, not talking about the map creation tools integrated into it. It's a mess. That needs no be cleared up. Also, there are some placeholders. Those need to be cleared up too.

So here is the roadmap. I will write posts about several major planned features that I didn't introduce or implement yet. Maybe brainstorm some ideas about these. In the meantime I clear up the mess. Don't forget that Alagaesia is the top priority until I release 1.0, so this might take a while. Then I release the alpha version, alongside with all the development resources here in this thread. This will hopefully give you more ammunition for feedback.

But images are so much better at sparking imagination than words.

Hepps

Scope and size look awesome. Much like the tantalizing morsels you have provided in the past it sparks the appetite to see the grand scheme.

Looking forward to seeing the alpha when it is ready.

redrum

@alkexr Makes sense. The map looks really cool, is it based on anything or did you come up with it completely from scratch? Also looking at it I assume it doesn't wrap around east to west?

alkexr

@redrum From scratch, no wrap.

redrum

@alkexr Nice. One thing that jumps out is given the size of the map as well as general player preferences, you probably want to consider focusing on a 2 alliance version of the map not just FFA. As it will probably be very difficult to get much of a player base on a FFA this large as it will probably on average last 20+ rounds.

Frostion

@alkexr Making a map from scratch is really a challenge. Not only in a technical sense. My experience is that it is hard in the sense of enduring the process, trying to see the end of the tunnel and keeping the motivation alive, while doing a lot of very monotone work. But it is awesome and rewarding when the map is done enough to be playable, as you probably already have experienced! (Even though I guess that we mapmakers all also have a bunch of unfinished maps/map concepts in our drawers )

I am confident that you can make Fallen Empire playable, as the map seems so far along in regards to graphics and concept. And we are here to help, just as we are here to give moral support

Cernel

@redrum While @redrum is correct about the fact that the FFA gang is small and that big FFA are challenging for PBF and near impossible for live gaming, I instead suggest you to have this map as FFA only, not even making a 1v1, as TA is lacking sound FFA maps and I believe that it is better a map being FFA only or 1v1 only, as it is lame to recycle a same map for totally different stuff (the only case in which I think it is cool having multiple games per map is when each one is representing a different starting point in time, like in v3 1941 and 1942).

alkexr

@cernel It is lame to recycle maps, but it is efficient.

@redrum I definitely can include a 2-alliance version, but I can't guarantee it will be as polished / balanced as the FFA. I mean, like, the very first design goal is that primary focus is on FFA.

Also, the motivation behind this map is what @cernel pointed out: TA is lacking on the genuine (maybe even 4X-y leaning) FFA front. We, with a group of friends usually work around this by hacking non-FFA maps.

Hepps

@alkexr In all likelihood a 12 player FFA would never get played, never mind on a scale such as this. Might want to bear that in mind for whatever the envisioned playable version is intended to be.

But at the end of the day... follow your own vision first. The rest of humanity be damned.

alkexr

@hepps said in Fallen Empire:

a 12 player FFA would never get played

I would rephrase that as "you won't ever have 12 human players for a single map". Some of the players are meant to be played by AI. And look at Large Middle Earth: it has a FFA game option. Just how stupid that is both lore-wise and balance-wise. Yet at least one person reported to have won (not just played, won) it with almost all players versus AI. That map has 17 players, and I can't fathom how it is possible to win with half of them. It probably took quite a few tries.

So no, I'm not really worried that this map won't be played ever. And as @Frostion said:

we mapmakers all also have a bunch of unfinished maps/map concepts in our drawers

There's plenty of time for more maps later. The rest of humanity can sigh in relief.

Hepps

@alkexr Yup. Was just saying. Would be sad to see a nice dynamic map that falls into obscurity because it can never get enough players.

General_Zod

@alkexr

Build it and they will come, especially if it's fun.

I think a map like this might make a dedicated FFA thread useful at some point. A location where FFA players can setup and schedule games. Since one of the biggest FFA hurdles is timing. Having the right players logged into the lobby at the same time and all still being available to play.

alkexr

With Alagaësia released and Large Middle Earth progressing well towards next version, I shifted my focus somewhat back to Fallen Empire. Mess is getting cleared up. Development is now completely integrated with git (aside from the unit managing script, which I'll have to rewrite anyway). Early alpha seems to be whithin reach. But until that happens, I give you some game features to meditate upon. Note that none of these have been implemented in any way yet.

Special actions

Special actions are faction specific user actions with a somewhat randomized outcome. Activating them costs XP, so it isn't useless after you level up all your heroes. (Err... is it even possible to make user actions cost XP? I'd better make a feature request if not.) They are expensive, but at the same time, they can be really powerful. What the result is depends heavily on faction. One faction can ask a genius engineer to come up with a contraption to aid you in your war, another one can perform a dark ritual... who knows what the result is going to be?

Mercenaries

As I mentioned earlier, some territories have more value than the resources they produce. For example, they can be home to mercenary units. Mercenaries are similar to the standard units of the factions, in that they are affected by all the positive/negative support and special attacks, and don't have unique abilities like heroes do. If you control a territory home to a type of mercenary unit at the start of your turn, you can purchase them similarly to your standard units. There is no limit to their number, and you can keep them even if you lose control of their home territory. As a consequence, multiple factions can have mercenaries of the same type at the same time. Mercenaries tend to be fairly good units, and taking control of them can be used to complement the weaknesses of your faction.

Bonus resources

Not necessarily resources in the strict sense, but couldn't come up with a better name. They are located in territories. They can be categorized based on their effect:

the controller of the territory gets some passive bonus - like 1 PUs cheaper ships, or some extra supply at the start of your turn (so that you can purchase a limited number of units even if you consume more supply than you produce)
the controller of the territory gets access to an activated ability (user action, costs XP) - like an altar giving the ability to pray to a god, who will in turn bless your armies for a turn
the resource can have a local effect, like giving bonus movement to units or having some very specific effect in a battle

Coming soon with a brief description of each faction.

redrum

@alkexr Thoughts:

~~Special Actions - Currently, user actions can only cost PUs and here is the feature request (3rd bullet point) for expanding that to non-PU resources: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/128/resource-system-assessment-and-improvements~~
Mercenaries - Probably want to have a cap on how many you can purchase or only allow them to be placed in specific territories.
Bonus Resources - Maybe call them Territory Bonuses instead?

alkexr

The factions

... and whatever little is already established about them

Saurian Alliance
A union of various humanoid and non-humanoid reptiles and similar races of varying degrees of intelligence.

Warlock Council
Once a guild of magic in the Empire, now a group of powerful mages hungry for power. Their units are expensive - but they make up for it by strong protective capabilities. They have wizard towers in the most remote corners of the known world, to which their magic users can teleport through an astral gate (canals) from their capital in the middle of that big lake, but only if they control both ends of that gate.

Polis League
A league of rich city states. They rely on a strong conventional army.

White Khanate
Fast-moving cavalry armies. They can sack settlements, giving them an amount of PUs if they conquer a new city for the first time.

Sacred Order
Followers of a god barely known to outsiders. They intend to turn everyone into followers of the One. They can pray to the One to bless their soldiers fighting in ~~the Holy War~~ ~~wars that have a point~~ any war.

Flame Nation
A nation of people with strong connection to the element of Fire. Recently they managed to subdue some powerful fire demons, and use them now to fuel their terrible war machines, including huge airships, which they use to devastating effect alongside with their naturally gifted pyromancers.

Winter Kingdom
Bloodthirsty barbarian tribes of the north, they rely more on brute strength than strategy.

Forest Folk
Various creatures of the forest. Naturally, they can use forest terrain to their advantage.

Pirate Federation
Filthy pirates, who feel at home on the seas and whose favourite pastime is raiding coastal cities. They don't hold private property in great respect, so they can resupply themselves in cities easily.

Abyssal Horde
It has always been known that some sorcerers go mad while wandering the depths of the Abyss. But we are still totally sane, aren't we? Yes, of course, we are. So why would they want to keep us locked in? Anyway... But we will leave anyway. What? How? Yes! True! They don't understand the power of this beautiful place!

Winged Dominion
A race of avian humanoids with a strong flying army. They use humans as slaves to do the dirty ground combat for them.

Fallen Empire
The remnant of the Great Empire, the few rich trading cities who were close enough to the capital that they couldn't break free of the influence of the Emperor. Who then decided that listening to mad inventors is a great idea, and his army is now full of ever weirder contraptions.

Almost ready for release. Due to logistics considerations I've no real choice but to release early alpha by Monday afternoon. Preferred status by release: the map is functional, every player has at least one unit type done, no placeholder stuff, no hacks. "Playable", in a twisted sense of the word.

alkexr

Fallen Empire is on GitHub. You can also download it.

Developer resources: Fallen Empire workshop contains map-specific files, while the map-creator tools used can be found in the TripleA maps workshop.

Steps to set up development on your pc:

Clone fallen_empire, fallen_empire_workshop and triplea_maps_workshop to the same folder. (For me all three are located at D:\Documents\GitHub\REPONAME, but the exact location shouldn't matter. I use GitHub Desktop.) If you set up a different folder structure, you will have to edit the FallenEmpire.ferracfg, FallenEmpire.tauntcfg and FallenEmpire.tagxcfg to point to the correct path.
Associate the *.tauntcfg extension with TAUNT.exe (TripleA Utility for Naming Territories), *.ferracfg with FERRA.exe (Fallen Empire Relief Renderer Application) and *.tagxcfg with TAGX.exe (TripleA Generator of Xml, used mostly for substituting tags).
If you want to edit something other than territory names, name placement, pu images, pu placement, game xml or the relief map: just edit it, only the listed things are hooked up to the tools.
If you want to change something about the listed things (most importantly, the game xml), don't edit them directly. Go to fallen_empire_workshop, look for the files referenced in the respective *.whatevercfg file, and edit those. When you are done editing, just double click the respective *.whatevercfg file.
For example if you want to change the game xml, you look up the FallenEmpire.tagxcfg. You will notice that it references the file fallen_empire_workshop\data\Fallen_Empire_TAGX.xml. Edit that file. When you are done, "run" FallenEmpire.tagxcfg (i.e. open it with TAGX.exe). That's it! TAGX will generate the game xml in the correct location, incorporating the changes you made.
If you edit the game xml (or any of the listed files) directly, your changes will be lost the next time the respective script is used.

alkexr

You can use TAGX for your own maps. It would be really useful for maps like Large Middle Earth, but setting it up this late in the process would be a pain.

But how does TagX work?

TagX substitutes @tagname@ with a colon delimited list of things having the tag.

Source:

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="axe_raider" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	<option name="transportCost" value="1"/>
	<option name="movement" value="2"/>
	...
	<tag name="foot"/>
</attachment>
			
<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="berserker" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	<option name="transportCost" value="1"/>
	<option name="movement" value="2"/>
	...
	<tag name="foot"/>
</attachment>
			
<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="boar_rider" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	...
	<option name="targetsAA" value="@foot@"/>
	<option name="typeAA" value="charge"/>
	...
	<tag name="mounted"/>
</attachment>

Result:

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="axe_raider" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	<option name="transportCost" value="1"/>
	<option name="movement" value="2"/>
	...
	<tag name="foot"/>
</attachment>
			
<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="berserker" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	<option name="transportCost" value="1"/>
	<option name="movement" value="2"/>
	...		
	<tag name="foot"/>
</attachment>
			
<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="boar_rider" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
	...
	<option name="targetsAA" value="axe_raider:berserker"/>
	<option name="typeAA" value="charge"/>
	...
	<tag name="mounted"/>
</attachment>

If later you were to add another unit, and tag it <tag name="foot"/>, they will automatically appear as a valid target for charge, without you having to do anything.

TagX can also do foreach loops:

<attachment foreach="LEADER=@leadership@" name="supportAttachment_$LEADER$_leadership_foot" attachTo="$LEADER$" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitSupportAttachment" type="unitType">
	<option name="unitType" value="@foot@"/>
	<option name="faction" value="allied"/>
	<option name="side" value="offence:defence"/>
	<option name="dice" value="strength"/>
	<option name="bonus" value="1"/>
	<option name="number" value="1"/>
	<option name="bonusType" value="leadership"/>
	<option name="impArtTech" value="false"/>
	<option name="players" value="@player@"/>
</attachment>

Tags are substituted first, so @player@ turns into a colon delimited list of players, @leadership@ turns into a colon delimited list of units with the leadership tag. Then the foreach is implemented: the result is a (way too long) list of support attachments, one for each unit with the leadership tag. All instances of $LEADER$ are replaced with the name of the unit to which that particular support attachments belong.

Foreach expansions can be nested. The syntax is foreach="VARIABLE1=value1:value2:value3;VARIABLE2=value4:value5;VARIABLE42=value42:value43" etc., if I recall correctly.

Another example:

<attachment foreach="territory=list:of:territories:you:care:about;player=list:of:players:you:care:about" name="conditionAttachment_$player$_has_battleship_at_$territory$" attachTo="$player$" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.RulesAttachment" type="player">
      <option name="directPresenceTerritories" value="$territory$" count="1"/>
      <option name="unitPresence" value="battleship" count="1"/>
</attachment>

So conditionAttachment_bestplayer_has_battleship_at_bestterritory will be true exactly when bestplayer has a battleship at bestterritory.