Fuel Enhancements

Frostion

@redrum
Should loading and unloading cost fuel? As right now, I believe only loading does?
As I see it, it makes sense that loading+unloading is only one move requiring 1 fuel. If you think about the land units as going from the center of their origin territory out to a sea territory center, they only actuality do half a move as they hit their own territory border and are then picked up. The ship moves to another territory, using its own fuel. Now the land units land on the coast/hit a new territory border and move to this new territory's center, using the second half of their fuel from their initial move. So it's like half a move plus half a move.

I would advocate that the units loading onto a ship are fuelled up and pay for a one territory move during loading, and that this is actually only half a move, with the second half done during unloading.

Also, this would prevent loaded units from ending up in an unrealistic and strange situation, that is if the player does not have fuel to spend on unloading. Who the hell would put invasion forces on transports without also giving them fuel to do the actual invasion?

Hepps

@frostion I agree. It would offer the cleanest solution if a fuel charge were only applied to one of the two "moves" during loading and unloading. The loading part making the most sense logically since as @Frostion points out... the unit would be "fueled up" knowing it was intended to be part of an invasion or to move once it landed.

As a side note... as far as one of the other significant issues we have as far as aircraft and carriers... could we not set it up so that carriers give +1 fuel/ aircraft/ move while they travel the same route? Since as far as I can tell.... the Carriers are never truly "carrying" the fighters in the first place. So without significant changes to how the engine handles fighters (on Carriers) they are really moving under their own power (ie flying) during any moves over SZ. Bear in mind that this is a hypothesis since I struggle to really understand how the engine truly interprets air on sea with carriers. If I am wrong, please ignore.

General_Zod

@redrum

@redrum said in Fuel Enhancements:

So fuel is its current state is tough to utilize well in a map.

Questions

How should fuel be handled with transports (naval, land, air)? Loading/unloading/moving?

Should the engine prevent kamikaze by lack of return fuel? Also potentially need to track fuel required for planes to land and display it as well and not allow it to be used for things like purchase?

Should withdraw/retreat cost fuel?

Should there be fuel consumption for defender units that are casualties?

What about planes on carriers? Do they cost fuel if the carriers moves and they follow it? Should allied fighters on carriers cost fuel?

My thoughts are:

At first glance, it looks like there should be no fuel charge for (sea) transporting units. But once we look at a couple scenarios, it become obvious that there is too much exploitation potential to that idea. (eg. bridging)

@Frostion makes a case to charge fuel cost for the (sea) loading of a unit, only. I agree, but I think it would be a cleaner solution, to charge on (sea) unloading of unit instead, since the loaded unit is useless and vulnerable until it is unloaded. (can be loaded via cranes) Or charge fuel on load and unload but at half the fuel cost rate of a normal movement, per given unit.
However it goes. One thing we need to watch out for in the fuel design, is to not make transporting by sea too expensive as a viable alternative. If anything it should always be the cheaper logistical option. (Minus the cost of sea transports themselves.)
Another aspect to consider is allied units being loaded, unloaded and in transit on allied transport.

I think kamikaze by lack of fuel should be allowed. However only if all the normal criteria has been met, to not be classified as a suicide. However AI handling is another story, since it wont be engine enforced.
Withdraw should cost fuel (not ideal) since it has the potential for exploitation by making a tactical retreat, to end up on the other side of the battle. (assuming at least one unit came via that territory)
I think no fuel cost to defend, is best. Albeit it is debatable as a game dynamic, since we don't want it to be, the excessively cheaper option, to take defensive positions.
With this one. I think the engine never truly considers the planes as true cargo, they follow under their own power. This is a flaw in the original model, if correct.
So there is another question here. Do you wanna fix this flaw, so then planes can be true cargo? If so, I suggest the planes not be charged fuel to load or unload since they stay in same territory, either way. Also if the air are true cargo they should not be charged fuel to move while loaded.
However in current model as is, they must be charged, because it can be exploited otherwise. Basically treat the air normal when they move, since they are never truly loaded.

Additional points.

I think the game property "Move existing fighters to new carriers" should not even be supported, since it is flawed to begin with. To be clear this is the one that allows exploitation of 1 extra movement by moving from land to sea during the placement phase with existing air.
All the other versions should not charge any fuel beyond moving there on NCM, since they are already charged and new air never really moved since its produced on acc.
Not sure, if submarines need a closer look when considering submerge. But I include it here as reminder to look it over.
I think air transports and land transports should be treated separately from sea transports, since they always load and unload in same territory. That being said, I suggest no fuel charges to load and unload and no fuel charges for the units being transported, while in transit.

@frostion said in Fuel Enhancements:

Scrambled units/fighters should not use fuel if the fight over their own territories, but if they go to an adjacent territory (reserves two fuel) and back, then the price is two. Even if shot down.

I agree with @Frostion on scrambled air units, if scrambled into the same territory as they begin, then no fuel charge. I guess this should apply to intercepts of SBR too.
But if they scramble into another territory, charge fuel for the 1 they go into and charge again for the one they return to for total of 2 charges.

Excuse me, if I repeated or missed some stuff other mentioned. Its hard to keep track.

General_Zod

Would also be nice to have a feature available that would allow certain territories to manipulate the normal fuel costs. To simulate terrain or other factors that would influence the fuel costs.

eg. mountains, swamps, blizzards could increase fuel costs, while plains, springtime or presence of oil fields can decrease fuel costs.

Territory attribute 

<option name="fuelConsumption" value="German.Armour:1:oil" count="-5"/>

Where value="unitType:quantity:fuelType" count="negative or positive integer by which fuelType consumption is affected"

A similar concept should be available for movement points in general too. I suppose it can be an expansion of terrain modifiers too.

beelee

@general_zod Hi Z
I think it already does it for terrain ? Or maybe not quite. I've not experimented too much with terrain. I did make a primitive unit that gives -1 Movement to certain units. Pretty sure it was infrastructure so it could be captured.

That might be a little different than what you're talking about though. I need to look into terrain in depth someday

Frostion

@General_Zod I can see how the "move existing fighters to a newly build carrier" can seem like a rule breaker or exploit, giving a free move in the placement phase. (Question: does this move actually require that the fighters have unspent movement points left in the same round? I have not tested this out.) Anyway, the rule is an optional XML set rule and it can really help some maps out, like if a map has a problem with newly build fleets being vulnerable to attack. I had to activate this rule in the Star Wars maps because it improved gameplay allowing new fleets to immediately pick up fighters from the planetside, making new fleets less vulnerable.

@All
Am I right to assume that it would seem acceptable to most to have all carried air units not use fuel while carried/move along with their carrier vehicle, not even if the carrier moves into an attack on sea zone and the fighters end up fighting? (in line with the "fighting in own territory uses no fuel" concept) But that this also (maybe because of in-univers time spend) uses up like 2 of like 4 fighter movement points. Also meaning that when a fleet moves 2 and attacks land and launch the fighters inland, that this would then require 2 fuel per fighter?

Edit: If the fighter has a range of 2 and the carrier a range of 3, I guess that the fighter can then just be carried 3, still be launched fuel free if number 3 carrier move is an attack on sea zone, but be able to join a land attack?

Edit 2: Maybe the above concept should be totally different, as it would set up strange situations if a carrier has many moves, carrying fighters with less movement, and then when it comes to an attack on land the fighters may not join in. Pretty strange taking in mind that the fighters have been sitting in a fighter bay and waiting for the land attack for a long time?

@redrum
It seems like there is already a good deal of consensus regarding some of the fuel rules. I know that the more far away a new fuel ruleset is from the existing, the more difficult it might be to program. But since the current rules are nearly not used, it would maybe be good to lay out our community wishlist or vision regarding the a fuel ruleset that would make sense and actually be used. I know that I would implement them

General_Zod

@beelee

Currently terrain can stop movement by disallowing entrance, but that's it. A specific unit type can be manipulated by technology and triggers but it affects all the units of that type, on map. I'm proposing more functionality, flexibility and ease of coding in my suggestion, since it would be essentially controlled by any territory on map. (Or via terrain modifier expansion.)

Also, I don't think there's any existing "fuelCost" options other than the one used as an unitAttachment.

@Frostion

The game property "Move existing fighters to new carriers", I'm referring to allows an actual extra movement.

Example, an existing fighter can fly 4 spaces during NCM to get to a land territory that is also a coastal factory territory (adjacent sea zone would make 5 spaces). During the placement phase, if an acc is placed, the same fighter can be moved over to the sea zone containing the acc. Thus effectively exploiting 1 extra move for a total of 5 movement.

There are other game properties that allow you to land existing or new fighters on existing or new acc without the movement exploit. "Produce fighters on carriers", "Produce new fighters on old carriers", "Land existing fighters on new carriers" and "LHTR Carrier production rules".

Btw, I think this was an allowed loophole because the v2 and v3 rules transition, changed during what phase, the existing air unit had to be in the intended sea zone, from "place phase" to "NCM phase".

Hepps

@general_zod While I agree the original rule makes no sense. It really doesn't matter to our discussion since it would only matter if you included it into your game (with fuel) in the first place.

General_Zod

@Hepps Excluding it from the equation of fuel cost would be ideal if possible, but it was brought up. So I just tried to clarify what it really does.

General_Zod

@Frostion

In the current configuration. It doesn't appear that the air units are ever truly carried. It looks like a hack, which just allows the air to land at end of NCM. So if this configuration isn't changed, then the air units need to use fuel get to the landing site (acc) during NCM. And they need to use fuel to get anywhere during CM.

If this is changed to where the air units are true cargo, then they should be able to get a fuel free ride on acc during NCM at the very least. I'm not sure if it makes good sense to ever allow a fuel free ride during CM.

I agree we should nail down as many parameter as possible, to assist the developer who is actually willing to code what is required, into engine. Hopefully @redrum is willing.

Hepps

@general_zod That was why I suggested the ACC have a property attachment that allows it to give fuel back when accompanied by the fighters.

It would achieve the same result without having to completely rewrite the ACC behavior.

General_Zod

@Hepps
I think I see what your getting at, but this would leave loopholes. Or the engine code would need to plug all loopholes.

Maybe you can you elaborate how it works.

Hepps

@general_zod I don't know what loopholes you are referring to.

You Could attach this exactly the same way you do the other unit attachments.

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="italianCarrier" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
  <option name="negatesfuel" value="navalfighter:2"/>

With something like this you could then eliminate the fuel consumption for the specified unit(s) and specify the quantity of the unit(s) while they move together. Pretty much in the same manner as the Mech blitzing with a Tank.

General_Zod

I like it, but I see one loophole (for lack of better term) which needs plugging.

What happens if the air unit has used its max movement to get to the acc during the beginning of NCM phase? How does the air unit move together with the acc during the NCM, if it has no more available movement?

It seems to require, more functionality.

Hepps

@general_zod Well the ACC would not be able to move since the fighter has already moved its max movement.

No different then it currently is. You cannot currently move a fighter with all it's moves then proceed to move the ACC X number of more moves.

what I am suggesting would not change any part of the current functionality. If your Air moves with a ACC during combat or noncombat this would simply negate the fuel consumption... while still keeping the fighter consuming its own movement during the moves. Exactly the same as the game currently works.

General_Zod

@Hepps

So why not add another attribute in addition. That gives the air unit a free ride, even after it used all it movement. As long as it moves with the acc. Like the current mech infantry does.

<attachment name="unitAttachment" attachTo="italianCarrier" javaClass="games.strategy.triplea.attachments.UnitAttachment" type="unitType">
  <option name="addsMovement" value="navalfighter:2"/>

Hepps

@general_zod Well now we are talking about something entirely different.

what you are suggesting would completely change the mechanics and abilities of Carriers and Fighters. Effectively adding more range to the fighters.

General_Zod

No, not giving it more operational range, just a lift. But yes, I am proposing more than current ability, to act more like a true acc should. I am also only proposing for the NCM phase.

But there's likely a better method of achieving the same result. I'm just throwing out a quickie,

Hepps

@general_zod Correct, and while that may be a desirable request. I don't think it has any bearing on my suggestion for a way to add functionality to ACC and fighters as it pertains to the fuel question.

General_Zod

I thought we were spitballing ideas on how to reasonably bring a nice fuel consumption model to fruition. Whatever that entails.

Logical acc seems important. Unless we just aiming for the fastest method to get to playable fuel consumption.