Iron War - Official Thread
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@Black_Elk, do you think that the 4 Infantry in Caucasus should get nerfed down to 3? That setup would reduce an USSR round 1 attack on Iran to 54% win chance, not 73% win chance. (Maybe giving India 1 more infantry as compensation, or place this 1 Allied infantry elsewhere on the map, where needed most.)
Should Iran and Iraq change turn order? Iraq/Iran could benefit from this, as an Iraqi liberation/capture of a fallen Iran would benefit Iraq instantly in terms of PU income.
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Yeah that might be a cool solution. Better at roughly 50/50 I'd think, because then if USSR tries and fails the Axis would get two shots to shut down the Western Turkistan blitz route. I think the options for a second round hit vs Iran kinda hinge on whether the mech/sp artillery can be brought into the fight. So that way Iran could try to shut it down first, and if they don't succeed, Iraq would still have the tank and fighter in range to try and make a save. Whereas going the reverse order its anyones guess how the Iran fight go hehe. I think the Iraq tank is more valuable used in the west, but I'd first take stock of how Iran held up. Other option might be like a naval escape of some sort. I was trying to think if there might be a good way to trade Iran itself for Riyadh, maybe using Italy fleet or something like that. But obv better to try and hold the line for a couple rounds if possible hehe
The fighter move I like (since the introduction of Soviet Caspian PT boat makes caspian attack less attractive), is still to try and kill the British-India transport by using the Iraqi PT boats and fighter there. But if Iran went first I think that would be more elective, since priority would prob be western Turkistan to hold the line. Iran then Iraq would allow for a somewhat stronger can opener, if they want to do a tank type thing instead of fighters. I think fighters are strongest, but first gotta get up to 20 on income to make it consistent. I still haven't decided which way I like best to try and divide up the middle east between the various Axis powers in range. Its a cool zone because pretty much every faction can reach it after a few rounds.
ps. This one has been pretty fun. First time I've had to manage a German press on the north, (I expected them to push Stalingrad, but they doubled back with huge numbers) Soviets had to withdraw. First time to see the Kuybyshev factory making a difference maybe. Trying to reform the line cause I can't see a way to keep the combined Axis juggernaut from sacking Moscow and Arch this round heheh. Meanwhile though they've been kicking ass and taking names in the Soviet Far East. I went with a KJF attack plan, bought a bomber at Irkutsk. Entertaining so far!
2020-10-5-Iron-War 3.0 Hard AI axis +150 bonus rematch USA4.tsvg
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@Frostion I read the change logs recently, and I was wondering how you got a fuel transfer system that was compatible with the AI. I think it changed around version 0.1.9, either when you went to it, or away from it.
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@ff03k64 said: “I read the change logs recently, and I was wondering how you got a fuel transfer system that was compatible with the AI”
I don’t think that the Fuel, PU and Iron nation-to-nation transfer system is AI compatible, if it is it is news to me. As far as I know the AI does not press any of these buttons / do anything during Actions and Operations.
I know that an AI cannot read and understand what happens during “Actions and Operations”, as it is perhaps too complicated a system for AI. But I would wish that a mapmaker could have some influence on what AI did during this phase, maybe combining it with how AI handles Political phase. It would be nice if a mapmaker could somehow set a 50% chance that the AI player would press this or that button every round. Like for example if player Iran had a preset 30% chance every turn to press “Send 10 Fuel to Germany” action, at the same time a 20% chance of trying to press “Send 10 Fuel to Italy” etc.
Maybe such a system could also be used by AI in politic, presetting like the AI player “Germany” would have a 25% likelihood of pressing “Declare war on USSR” every round, etc. This could be sweet IMHO
@ff03k64 and @Black_Elk
Here is a little pre-release XML that you can test out if you like. I think this will make the AI act a lot differently, so we might see a some impactful changes:v0.3.0 to v0.3.1 Alpha changes
• Iran now has turn before Iraq
• Added “tuv” property to Resources and Units like Rally-Points, Iron, Fuel etc.
• Minor unit start setup changes.v0.3.1-Alpha.zip
Install by simply overwriting the old XML, or rename or backup if you wish. -
Just played a round, felt pretty good. I like the Iran/Iraq order better. Maybe just the orientation jump back helps I think, and alphabetical that way too.
Here I went with an Italian reinforcement in the first round to try and hold the line. Then flew in the pair of German starting fighters for added defense. Iran had a money sweep with the PT boats vs the British-India fleet, but then Iraq whiffed at Syria hehe. Anyhow, here we are on Italy2, feels good from Axis perspective. I'll switch sides to Allies later after I play a bit to see how it feels from Soviet perspective, but so far seems cool.
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@Frostion said in Iron War - Official Thread:
• Removed USAs, Iraq’s and Iran’s “Fuel unit” purchase and support system.
I went back and found it again. I am referring to this change.
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@ff03k64 In the earlier iterations fuel was first a purchasing requirement similar to steel. So some units would cost X fuel to build. Then in the next version after that, fuel was an upkeep thing. So "fuel" units there would consume not during purchase but every turn based on how many of such units were on the board. It was basically a cap on the total number of fuel units that could be in play at any one time (unless those units were also being destroyed through attrition ,eventually the player would run dry simply by having a bunch of tanks, ships and whathaveyou. already on the board.) Then I think it may have gone back to the purchasing requirement thing for a little but, before the more substantial change was made with 1.9 where fuel become attached to movement. I think that's the change being referenced in the quote above.
The last two big changes regarding fuel were the resource exchange phase, and the introduction of the synth barrel as a unit that can be purchased which produces fuel, but which is destroyed rather than captured when the territory is taken over.
Anyhow its gone through a number of tweaks before arriving at the current. Each iteration had unique sort of spin or strategic aspect that was a little different. I think the current is the most novel, since I haven't really seen a resource=movement type thing used on another WW2 themed map before. This one is innovative in that regard, but also maybe less familiar. Steel has analogs in a lot of other maps, where you maybe need Wood or Metal or whatever. But needing a resource to move stuff around is pretty wild. I think it creates certain play drivers that I haven't seen in operation before this one, so its fun to tease that stuff out.
I like the concept a lot, but do worry a little that it may be a bit onerous to track. Unlike steel or PUs, its much harder to get a sense of how much fuel one actually needs, or how disruptive the loss of say a single barrel might be, not just for yourself but also for the opponent. The general sense I have is that the easiest way to screw the enemy in this game is to steel their oil hehe, because after the second round everyone who hasn't invested in green barrels is probably running dry. I think its kinda cool cause it encourages the purchase of the green barrels, though admittedly when I do so I'm usually just guessing at what amounts would be needed, cause its hard to parse. For a shorthand I try to think that I need basically 2 fuel for every steel unit I have on the board, to move unhindered. But for the larger nations the exact numbers there are harder to see at a glance than it is for the smaller nations. I tend to pick up a fuel barrel whenever I have a 5 PUs remainder that I can't spend otherwise, usually from lack of steel to buy a light tank. But I tend to do it more as an impulse buy, rather than from having a real clear sense of like "oh damn I need 3 more movement next turn, so I better make sure I buy 3 synth barrels and not 2!" hehe its never that exact for me. But maybe I'm shitty at counting on the fly, or taking the time to truly map out every movement contingency. Usually its just like 'well, we know we don't have enough, so better buy it whenever we can, unless the enemy is banging down the doors" lol
I think the best fuel exploit I've come up with is carrier camping. Basically sending 1 friendly fighters to hang out on a teammates deck, because then the fighter will taxi along with the carrier, but without consuming fuel. I think its helpful to leave 2 spots open on deck for your own fighters or so that a bomber can land if it has to, just to enable attacks. Sometimes camping fighters can get mixed up though, if there are multiple carriers in the same zone. Or two carriers from different nations on the same team. Really helpful to be able to move a heavy hitting defensive unit without needing as much fuel. Cause the worst is getting stuck in a situation where you want to move a carrier deck, but can't because your own fighters would require too much fuel to move.
A stacked carrier with 3 of your own fighters, requires like 8 fuel to move a full two spaces max distance. Whereas stacked with 3 friendly fighters on deck it only costs 2 fuel to move the same distance, but still gives the defense. Still I think you can run into problems with fully stacked decks. Sometimes its better to just roll with 1 or 2 fighters on board, so you can do gamey stuff moving a teammates air around or enable attacks that wouldn't otherwise have a landing spot. But it can be really potent once the little guys start contributing a fighter here and there to up the carrier game,
There are some other camping type moves that can also be done. Like trying to position subs, tanks or aircraft at placement into places where they can stay put for a round if need be. Trying to find ways to only move 1 tile rather than 2 whenever possible to conserve, or just skipping a round entirely to allow a major fleet movement later. Frequently I will just leave the subs or air-transports that spawn regularly in the position where they were placed initially, just so I can move more critical units like naval transports or carriers. I think the only thing that keeps the bomber unit from being really OP is the fuel cost, since most nations can't bank enough fuel to have more than 1 or 2 flying around without everything else grinding to a halt as a result haha
ps. Axis just murdered in the 3rd round. HardAI soviets seem to have trouble managing the G3 hit. They attempt to stack Leningrad, but at hopeless odds. With the transported units the attack was 100% in Germany's favor. So I'd think they'd withdraw, but the gravitational pull of that choke point at the Leningrad pocket is just too much for them I guess lol.
2020-10-6-Iron-War 3.1 Hard AI Allies J3.tsvg
Started a game as Allies, will have to finish tomorrow. Sleep calls
2020-10-6-Iron-War 3.1 Hard AI Axis USSR2.tsvgpps. Oh one other thing I meant to mention but keep forgetting hehe, I would suggest setting a faster fade put on the Chinese national anthem. Their turn is usually pretty quick, so what happens to me a lot is that the China music starts bleeding into the Brazilian anthem at the end of the game round and sounds kind of jarringly dissonant quite often.
The game from yesterday was going pretty well, it took about 4 rounds to handled the mideast factions and a pretty thorough commitment from British India. Axis were holding steady but for some reason G decided to suicide vs the Leningrad stack last round. I think they had odds on the attack, but after a bad first round of the combat phase they pressed the attack even though the return fire was certain to see all their aircraft destroyed. I've caught it happen a few times where they AI keeps fighting when it would probably be better to retreat and cut the losses. With the smaller battles they do it more reliably, but for the big battles they tend to go all in and just fight to the death sometimes.
Anyhow USSR4
2020-10-6-Iron-War 3.1 Hard AI Axis USSR4.tsvg -
Initial thought on 0.3.1 - Rally points are not the easiest to see at first. And it seems like there are an awfully lot of them in the pacific. If you get lucky as the US say, you can easily build 3 units in the Philippines sea zone. That seems very strong. With Wake, Midway, and Hawaii, you have 3 more relatively safe production off the mainland too. It obviously has the potential to be strong for Japan as well, So i am not sure if it should be changed. Feels like Africa could use one or two in the middle somewhere, and maybe the soviet far east as well, in a place that isn't so susceptible to being taken by Japan.
I think that is probably the main change since 0.2.9, I will say more when i actually play the game some more!
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After playing it through, the rally points might not be the best thing for the AI. Japan has built a ton of infantry on islands, so they now have a bunch of tuv that is useless.
Germany seems like they can't expand into USSR enough. Once they get like 4 territories in, they stopped sending new units that way. Probably general AI issue, but thought useful to let you know. I don't think it was the fuel limiting them either.
Italy has built like 20 AA guns. That seems excessive. Doesn't look like anyone else did that though.
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It seems to me that territories like Shanghai, Peking, Jehol, Ryojun, and Canton should be original owner China. I am not sure on the exact geography, but probably also Hsinking, Tsitsihar, and Hailar?
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Is there any way preventing national sounds overlapping?
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@Schulz I always forget that some maps have sounds. First thing i do is turn them all off!
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Because of they are bad sounds or just distract from game?
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@Schulz Just cause i usually don't want others to have to listen to them. I find it is a good game to play while doing something else, and no sound is nice for that.
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I've been trying to make new unit images for this game but they never look quite right... How does one do it? -
Been playing this one again for the past couple nights.
I tried it with Economic Victory instead of the VC win a few times, which felt a bit more satisfying for solo play since you can get in some more rounds that way before the hammer falls. I did notice though that its tied to PUs at the end of the round rather than Production totals. I think I hit 650 in Cash before actually conquering that much land. Probably from saving a purchase or something? In any case, game still plays pretty enjoyably as Axis. Playing as Allies is somewhat simpler since the German AI doesn't go as big as they might. I think mass transports buys for team Axis is the most solid. Basically spending everything on transports in the first round for max pressure and flexibility during round 2. Something sort of like this for a set up...
2021-4-3-Iron-War Axis Transports G2.tsvgBut of course the machine would never go that heavy amphib early on if the sides were switched. Allies do buy some transports, but not quite enough to get the job done, so I notice they stack islands as well.
Not sure on the audio stuff, I also saw the anthems playing simultaneously, as it kind of fades from on turn to the other. Probably would be cleaner if the national music cut at the end of the turn, especially for the blocks that have small nations that make their turns pretty quickly.
Anyhow, still a fun map. Hope you all have been well during the plague times
best Elk -
Just doing another run, this time as Germany solo with everyone else controlled by the hard AI.
I think the strongest play from Germany is to slam into Russia, either pressing the Leningrad pocket via amphib or darting to Stalingrad with mech, then redirect West after the Russians are handled. The runner up would be doing it in the reverse order, with Sea Lion first to control the western approach by sea, then redirect East to focus entirely on Russia before they gain the upper hand. But just for kicks, and since it was a solo, we opted for a third way: launch an expeditionary force to mess with the minors! haha
Takes probably 4 or 5 transports to have much impact against any of the other Allies, and a fair amount of fuel just to move the transports, but its pretty entertaining. Fuel management I think is the most important thing to pulling it off, without just handing the game to the Soviets on a silver platter lol. I tried to build up the synth stockpile early on with a dozen or so additional green barrels to keep from burning out, since the first few rounds will tap all the reserves for sure.
After the North Sea Zone I think the Freetown Sea Zone is maybe the strongest for Axis to occupy with a transport fleet.
Takes a few turns to set up, but from that position Axis can threaten 6 Allied Factories and a couple Rally Points from a single sea zone. Hard for the Machine to defend all of them, so whichever ends up the weakest, Germany can just sweep them and then use production to set up a little colony to mess with Team Allies heheh.
In this one we sent 5 transports and the Battleship out to the South Atlantic and used the rest to shuck units towards the Soviets since we knew they'd be fierce. G had just enough juice to crash the party in Stalingrad, but then had to strafe back home to safety in East Prussia. Our AI Axis buddies are bit unreliable, so we've been planning to go it alone for the most part. Finland is probably toast without some reinforcements at the last possible minute. We'll probably have to save them, or maybe not lol. But anyhow you can see the lanes down there off the coast of West Africa in the save below... Basically gives G the choice to disrupt South America or Africa, whichever is the more weakly defended. Here I think South America looks like the juicier prize, so probably will go that way to stomp! But its fun for a change of pace on this map.
I noticed that AI Japan did purchase a new factory in Shanghai, so that's good to see. Probably most AI nations have more production than cash on hand so they don't really buy new factories, but I like how the rally points open up more possibilities and make some regions of the map and minor powers viable even if their main factory gets smoked hehe
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Picked it up tonight where I left off, on the eve of invasion South America hehe.
Hard AI Allies have put up pretty good fight so far. Didn't want to overcommit, so we sacked a few transports to get the ball rolling, but held the main fleet back on Freetown Sea Zone. We but the shock on the Dutch and Brazil. But French Colonies have since been reinforced with mass air from the US/UK. We kept the focus on that South American front with a pair of factories to build up on the ground. Had to dip back to the North Atlantic for a few rounds to manage as US press vs Normandy, but then wheeled back down. Disrupting West Africa seemed to give Il Duce a leg up, and AI Italy started to make an impact. We saved the Finns, but couldn't hold the line in the Middle East. Just to far afield for Solo G, what with all the antics in Suriname and such lol.
Saw Japan purchase a second factory in Chunking. So far I think the only power that has entered the factory race is Japan. Though the AI Soviets and Brit India have been making pretty good use of the Mid East rally points once they swept in. Japan is finally putting the heat on in the Far East though. Russia has been predictably beast mode the whole time, but I think we got a shot here to finally clean their clock at Kuybyshev on the Blitz and clinch it heheh
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G10.tsvg
Pretty entertaining
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G10 non com.tsvg
Boom! lol
Kept on after Economic Victory to see how long it would take to set up Invasion USA. We got a toehold on the US mainland in the 15th round, but they're still pretty deep with the tanks and fighters and such. Everywhere else AI Allies are now in full collapse mode, as we went round robin with G's pocket fleet from Gabon to South Africa. Axis cut Russia in half with some help from AI Italy and Japan stepping up to close our gaps. Japan made one more factory purchases at some point adding another in Yakut. They seemed to be the only nation much interested in expanding production, but it did seem to help their charge across China to take Siberia. I think the rally points do help keep the AI Allies afloat despite hardAI limitations for production type purchases. From the players perspective I felt like the Rally points encouraged my purchasing of more Tanks since they can only produce a single unit. So that's kind of cool. A couple medium tanks out of Morocco and West Africa early on were helpful to shore up our transport capacity while on the move.
I thought for sure HardAI USA was going to drive us back from South America when they started started purchasing transports, but they sent them towards West Africa as fleet fodder instead of doing the shuck shuck with ground to crush our foothold in Dutch Guiana. After we regrouped they then let us smoke their main Atlantic fleet off the Gulf Coast, which cleared the way to an easy Aixs shuck into Florida... certain doom hehe.
2021-4-8-Iron-War Germany Solo Transports G16.tsvg
Might take a crack at an Allied solo again if the mood strikes, but had fun doing a Germany run
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Here's an idea from watching how the AI plays. The set up is the same as default, except that any territory that has a Victory City, A starting Factory, or which controls a strait now has a Rally Point on it.
For the starting Factory territories the rally point does not really add any additional production capacity for the initial controlling power, and only really comes into play when those spots trade hands. Elsewhere it just makes sure that every VC and Canal territory has a rally point on it. So Denmark Gibraltar, Singapore, Oslo etc. The idea being that since the HardAI seems to target Rally Points much more effectively than factories, this might make for more challenging PVE experience, without really changing the PVP aspect too much.
I agree that the Rally points are a little hard to make out. Probably because some unit flag icons have a gold trim around the base already, and other don't? Or maybe if the Flags were slightly larger?
In any case, I think the HardAI would likely do a lot better with these Rally Points as targets. It seems to defend and contest Rally Point territories more readily, probably because they are capturable. Anyhow, given how it played vanilla, thought this way the machine might have a better shot guarding their core production zones and controlling the sea lanes..
Iron-War Rally points on Factories.tsvg
Bought to give it a try in a solo, just to see how it works.
Here it is after 9 rounds in a USA solo, everyone else to HardAI...
I was particularly pleased with how Germany managed the Eastern front and the Battle of the Atlantic. Note especially the counter play vs Stalingrad in early rounds. I think having the Rally points on the Russian factories pulls the center of gravity there a bit, since G charged much harder than I remember.
As USA we focused on the Pacific to pretty good results. We bypassed Truk to reclaim Philippines and use that as the base of OPs for the Pacific. After breaking the IJN, China stepped up to crack Manchuria, so the Pacific is well in hand. But over on the European with less investment there's been some good back and forth. Atlantic plan was for the Spanish landing pad ala Classic, but it failed hard when Italy clapped back. A slog over Gibraltar and Spain ensued, with USA trading their fleet to Destroy Italy's. Then Germany broked the Royal Navy with subs and advanced as far as the waters of Halifax before being turned back. They won the battle of the Atlantic for the convoys for a couple rounds for sure. USA just started to push back on Fortress Europe holding with a pocket fleet in the Western Med. Pacific is a mop job, but the Axis a driving pretty hard into Russia now. I think ensuring Denmark on G1 with the Rally Point helped them to get the ball rolling. They still haven't tried to conquer Benelux though, even after 9 rounds lol. Maybe we need a Market Garden Rally point?
Iron-War Rally points on Factories USA solo US9.tsvg
Anyhow, pretty entertaining I thought. I like the new cheaper steel cost for the Transports since the older versions and the Rally Point unit concept. They make the USA feel more viable going both directions at once, which makes the game a bit more exciting. Clearly team Allies did a lot better on one side of the board than the other in this game, but I think it feels about right. In a game with a Pacific focus from USA solo, G should probably be right about here by this time in the game. Playing out not too unlike the actual war.
Few more rounds in and AI Germany is still running the board on AI Russia. AI China is a beast though hehe. With Thailand under wraps, I think the cleanest kill is probably let Japan whither while we strike to the Mid East before Germany gets too monster. Or Maybe Somalia to clip into Italy some more for revenge for the Spanish fiasco?
Iron-War Rally points on Factories USA solo US11.tsvg
I think for team Allies Solo Soviets are still probably the more entertaining power to take for a single nation vs the AI, USA is slower to get started and less action up front. But USA solo was able to build more momentum over time with the cheaper transports and more rally options. Even with some setbacks early on in the Atlantic they recovered pretty well. AI Japan I think took a bit of a beating on J1 too, so perhaps they'd fair better in the rematch. I think I'd give this one to AI Germany just for the chip on the shoulder. Well played hard AI heheh.
Switched sides for a German solo to see how it felt with more Rally Points. So far seems to be holding pretty well.
Iron-War Rally points on Factories Germany Solo G5.tsvg
I think airbases spawning airtransports are probably more problematic for HardAI Allies, than the Sub Pens are for HardAI Axis. Main issue with the former is the fuel consumption and inefficient use since they aren't transporting. I think an Allies version of Sub Pen called "Liberty Ship Yards" which produced naval transports would probably be more engaging. Airtransports just feel too niche, and while its fun to try and make use of them as the human player the HardAI just doesn't know what to do with them, other than waste fuel using them as attack aircraft lol.
I think additional Rally Points could be used to anchor the fighting in a way the AI can comprehend. It might be fun to see a scenario set up so that the first round basically went from March 1941 to Dec 1941. Something between these too maps from the wiki...
Basically March is the latest date where its possible to imagine Axis still a factor in East Africa and the Mid East. Keeping the same turn order, the idea would be to have the first round take place during the period immediately after the Fall of France, but just before the German invasion of the Soviet Union, and closing out the round right after a Pearl Harbor opener from Japan.
Thematically, you could keep Free France centered on Equatorial Africa, with De Gualle getting a transport or whatever. French India and the pacific territories declared their support for De Gualle and so could continue to be represented by the French Colonies faction. But everywhere else declared for Petain and Vichy. For a 41 timeline those spots could be under nominal German control at the outset, but weakly defended. This to bring more of West Africa and Madagascar etc into the Mix. With more starting Territories under Axis control at the outset, I think this would help with the perennial desire by players to "Paint the Map their colors" since such TTs could either go to France or someone else, depending on who gets their first.
Another idea would be to have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral, to get a DDay Vibe going. I think if UK/USA could take direct control it would make the invasion of Europe via France much more viable. It would be cool I think to have a Rally Point in Benelux, this would give UK (or who knows maybe even KNIL hehe) a chance to claim it and juice at least a little production out of the Territory.
Here's a quick hackjob draft to to show how might look for starting territory ownership in March. I didn't tweak any rally points or forces yet. Though it would be relatively easy to use the Rally Point unit combined with a different Starting ownership of certain TTs to shift the focus on a more 1941 oriented start... This just shows what the starting territories would be for the Period.
Iron-War March 1941 draft ideas.tsvg
Essentially with much of France under nominal Vichy/German control, and the French Colonies of Indochina under Japanese control. G1 would basically be Barbarossa, J1 would be Pearl and USA entry for the total war start. 1941 theme could help to justify new rally points or starting forces positioning, but keeping the turn order and everything else the same for consistency. As a gamesave could just skip the first 2 rounds and have it begin in Early 1941 for the same tech progression. Might be fun. Start date would basically signal battle the aftermath of the Battle of Gabon, German invasion of USSR, and Japan surprise attack on the Dutch, British and US pacific possession, with round 2 G2 being Late 1941= January, which the play pattern synching up for that timeline target.
ps. Maybe something like so? Just shifted the TUV around without really removing anything lol. But you know, like with DeGaulle up there to reinforce UK, and the rest of the units shifted to Equatorial Africa. Then scooting the Germans around with some garrisons in the West and couple Afrika Korps tanks in Tunisia. Along those lines, doing the same for Soviets and Japanese etc to get a more 1941 thing going. USA could maybe get some transports to start things like that. Just for a different spin from 1940
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@black_elk said in Iron War - Official Thread:
have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral
"...have certain territories like Normandy as original owner True Neutral..."
Wow this is an Excellent idea ! Solves the factory turning French problem. I know this is for "Iron War", but I'm gonna use it for G 40. A problem I've never found a sufficient answer for.
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