Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread

[Cernel]

@redrum I think the heavy_cavalry unit of Manchukwo looks very bad. It is the only unit I consider being not decent and I feel it is degrading for the map. I'm not sure if this player actually needs heavy_cavalry, so I would cut it from the game anyways.

[redrum]

@cernel Responded in the invisible unit thread.

I've recruited @Hepps to help clean up the unit images a bit.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

I've recruited @Hepps to help clean up the unit images a bit.

Ok, so, I don't think most needs to be redone necessarily (even tho most is not really correct); just giving some limited additional considerations.

Since most units are ripped off from different players of other games, pretty much most is wrong, but I think that's ok (this doesn't need to be a perfect map), as long as it feels fairly generic, or just anachronistic. The only two other things I would suggest changing (beside the heavy_cavalry) are:

• The nationalist elite looks like an Italian bersaglieri.
• The communist guerrilla looks like an Italian bersaglieri.

I think the Chinese can have only conscript and infantry, not elite, since anyways their elite was subpar to the japanese infantry, just not as much as the standard ones (of course, here pulicat might argue I'm being unfair to the Chinese, and I'm not actually certain). In this case, I would keep the current conscrip image, while using a german soldier for the infantry one (removing the elite from the game for the Chinese).

For the nationalist elite, if it stays, I would swap it with a german infantry, since the best units of the nationalists were german equipped.

On the other hand, I don't have an idea about how your average communist guerrilla should better look like.

Also, I would remove from the game the light_infantry of Manchukwo, or, since it moves 2, maybe it should not be as cheap as a conscript, tho I'm not sure what that might represent (no idea if the Manchukwo had some special bersaglieri of foot-cavalry kind of infantry units; in general, they were very unimportant, except maybe for having a fairly good cavalry).

[Cernel]

@redrum @Hepps So, anyways, I just made (modified) two new units for the Nationalists, so they are not Italian Nationalists:
infantry:

elite:

Take them or do something else, if you prefer.

Personally, I don't think that graphically there is much left to be done. I think only the heavy_cavalry and guerrilla (Italian bersaglieri running all over China) need redo. Rest is good/bearable, probably not worth the time to do much about it. At most I would say the commando, since it is quite off the rest, but I think it's decent.

Anyways, I don't intend to propose other stuff.

Actually, I think one of the biggest problems (for me) of this map (as per pulicat prefence) is that everything is so smaaallllll (and still a fair bit of overflow, even with almost 24 pixels units).
So I've made this mapskin that it is twice the dimension of the map and units at 0.8333.

https://github.com/Cernelius/red_sun_over_china-big_skin/archive/master.zip

If that's fine with the current map owner , I'll make a request for adding this map skin to the repo once the units folder and whatever appears to be stable (I'll paste it into this skin).

p.s.: Why 3 shells for the heavy artillery? Since it's the 2nd level of artillery, I'd put 2. Anyways, I think these Communist artilleries are very distincive and can make without icons.

[Hepps]

@cernel Yeah almost everything you discussed was really all we were planning on looking at. It was meant to just clean it up not really over haul the entire thing.

I agree that the Manchuko cavalry is needing to be either changed or at the very least cleaned up to look similar to all the other units.

The Inf design looks good. Much improved.

The Artillery shells were just lifted from @Frostion IW map as a way to quickly substitute the Hvy Bomber icons @pulicat had used originally used.

[Hepps]

@redrum Here is a rendering of the train with the Russian hue added. Is this what you were looking for?

[redrum]

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

@Hepps Trains image looks great. If you can post it in each nation's hue then I'll definitely add them in.

[Hepps]

@redrum I'll think about it.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

Yes, I believe that's inevitable when you enlarge an image. I don't plan on making an actual new relief for this map, so assuming that means better not having this as a map skin in the repository (wasn't proposing it as original), then nevermind.

[Cernel]

@redrum A problem that I'm sure you'll perceive now that you are playing this map is that the program doesn't try alternative routes when the shortest one is blocked by a canal. This is particularly relevant here, with the many land canals, and it is going to be a substantial annoyance when making moves with the air units, as they will try to go through the trains only connections, probably seldom requiring the use of ctrl for them.
This would be a much bigger problem if you would make, for example, a game in which you have portals teletransporting stuff very far away, as those would really muck down a lot of stuff that can't use them.

[redrum]

@cernel Yeah, one of the first things I noticed. Essentially route finding needs to consider if canals aren't passable by the selected units. Otherwise route finding tries to use the city to city connections and players have to use waypoints a lot. This is very similar to the issue with mountains not being passable on BFA that I just fixed.

[mattbarnes]

@redrum do I want a test game? Yes, in theory. But time is an issue. I’m still playing the old map with my father in law, which absorbs what little leisure time I have. Let me see if I get a free evening and if so I’ll have a go at a PBEM and send it to you.

PS instead of light artillery, why not rename them as “generals”? They enhance infantry attacks, right? Wouldn’t need to change the stats as gameplay at all just the label and icon. Would just get us away from the non-historical surplus of artillery.

And the other Japanese units could maybe be relabelled:
Armoured cars -> mobile infantry or cavalry
Mech infantry -> light infantry
Heavy artillery -> artillery
Tanks -> tankettes

[Cernel]

@mattbarnes It's really hard to guess what those light artilleries that are faster than infantries are representing. My only guess is "horse artillery", but so many? I wouldn't go for making them generals.

[Cernel]

@redrum Why didn't you attack Liaocheng with the Nationalists?!

That would have been a +23 swing average with units that have not much better ways to go.

Anyways, I think that is the first case you would meet playing the game, as the fighter in Naking can be made to reach only with Ctrl (you would be surprised how few people, even veterans, know about Ctrl-ing the path).

I mean, that is where I was expecting you to see your fighter trying to fly on rails.

[redrum]

@cernel Uh I must have missed some of the units that can reach there? I think the best odds I found were something like -25 TUV swing. Care to share a save game showing your opening?

[Cernel]

@redrum Haven't actually yet decided if I want to play this game (don't take this as anything particular; I'm just very picky in general), but I'm considering it. The Liaocheng attack is just the first thing I noticed, as I also wondered if that was intended in the first place. I would be interested to hear back from the few still alive that played the game with pulicat, but it seems like a mandatory round 1 move, that is extremely random with dice, and I'm really wondering if this is intended, or pulicat overlooked this (what's the point of being surrounded like that, if you can take such a shot?), alse because of, you know, history...

[Cernel]

@redrum Actually, I missed that armour can land transport heavy_artillery, so that is actually a +28 TUV swing and 51% win probability (killing all and saving your fighter) (and the autoselect should make you land transport the heavy_artillery, preferentially to the infantry, if a fix to transporting highest attack units first can be made).
Moreover, the fact that armour is a land transport implies that the armour unit is not even representing the infantry organic of the Japanese tank regiments, that makes the current infantry ratio even more incredibly ahistorical (as you would have to actually subtract a number of infantry equal to the number of armours etc., in confronting with the historical data on divisions, regiments etc., that usually have more than enough infantry you can transport in organic, and a bunch actually keeping up with bicycles).

[redrum]

@cernel Ok, I just tested and got the +28 TUV now. I totally missed armor are land transports! Feel like on this map that makes them extremely strong at 6 TUV and feels kind of weird. And yeah a 50/50 battle with that many units round 1 is not an ideal setup IMO. I'm almost definitely going to remove isLandTransport from armor in the next version.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

And yeah a 50/50 battle with that many units round 1 is not an ideal setup IMO.

Yeah, that really makes the game hard to be taken seriously with dice, since a huge dicing there is going to have a massive snowball effect, and liking dice doesn't necessarily mean it's great to be down to 10% chances to win the game after 5 minutes of playing. I think it's not a problem at all for LL gameplay, instead. Anyways this still doesn't beat or come close to 270BC Lilybaeum with the city.:face_without_mouth:

[erik542]

@cernel said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

Yeah, I guess that pulicat made the Japs so high tech to feature the material superiority with respect to the Chinese, but to me it feels that has been pushed too far, since, while the Japanese had surely much more hardware than the Chinese, they were mainly an infantry army with very minor and limited mechanization, relying mainly on infantry charges and close combat.

Pulicat did want the contrast in army composition to accentuate the attrition gap between China and Japan. That being said, it always felt a little off. The Japs should probably have some infantry if only to absorb some of the the initial casualties.

Honestly, it feels like the map would be better served if things were adjusted so Japan could go first since in most other maps the "aggressor" usually goes first in a particular theater.