AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)
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There is still zero reason for the rules to indicate that AA fire should occur in the Combat Move phase. The rules could easily state that AA fire occurs in Conduct Combat and Noncombat Move phases only. If this had been done, then there would be no questions regarding this rule.
That said, I don’t disagree with the intent to plot out all air moves before rolling any AA. As I have mentioned, I’m not arguing for or against any interpretation, just wanting to make sure it’s authoritative and correct.
For coding, I would suggest still including a warning message when plotting out an air move over AA so the player knows that later on the AA will fire on it.
bayder
P.S. Do we know how this rule is coded in any of the other major A&A platforms?
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As an active player over at Daak and AAMC, they use LHTR exclusively, so this issue is not present there at all. Personally, for my 2 cents in this very complicated and very nuanced discussion, LHTR clears up a LOT of ambiguity, and I prefer that over the standard OOB rules. However, it is clear that the standard rules are more appealing here at TripleA, so this discussion is worthwhile and noteworthy.
I've read the various posts here, and it may come down to us simply accepting the coding of the software currently (e.g. and codifying this as the official "Club Rule" in this regard), or if the members feel differently, to ask the developers to change the code, and state the rule in the interim. I would add, however, that the list of "to dos" for the developers is very deep, and there are far greater priorities, so I would not expect for this to be resolved quickly (or easily).
Either way, we should codify the rule in the Revised Tournament Rules section of our Forum to avoid any confusion on this.
Warm Regards, Deltium
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@deltium The matter is more like how many will remember this discussion 5 years from now? How many remember the discussions we had in WarClub in 2013 or before? So, if not fully solved, I wish to document it in a place to make sure that 20 years from now this matter won't be forgotten (mostly the fact that resolving AA flyovers immediately is a bug, as they should, on way or the other, solved after all movement is finalized).
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IMHO the minimum this discussion with its clarifications has deserved is opening an issue at Github. In the past I have opened many rules-based issues there, all of them have been accepted, though not all of them have been as important as this one - so I don't see any reason why this topic should not be documented as a Github-issue.
I am happy to open it, as soon as I have found some time to check @Cernel 's above summary.
Of course opening an issue does not imply any priority when it comes to fixing it. This of course is a developer's decision.
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@panther I'll let you open them then. My suggestion is opening at least two issues, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, especially if there is the preference prioritizing correctly OOB only, and maybe more than that (since anyways there are a series of related details that are not supported either).
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I forwarded this thread to our AH/WotC development contact (Rob Daviau) from back in 2002/2003 when we were playtesting Revised. He responded with: "Yeah, I can see the conundrum here. Unfortunately I’m not even close to being authoritative when answering a question like that. I see pros and cons to both ways to interpret it. If I talk to WotC soon I’ll ask if anyone there can answer it."
Unless Krieghund is an authoritative voice from AH/WotC, I don't personally feel we have a 100% answer on this yet. I agree it's likely the plotted movement path option is correct, but not with any degree of certainty.
bayder
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@bayder said in AA revised minor bug:
Unless Krieghund is an authoritative voice from AH/WotC, ...
They should know him very well.
You don't know him? He is A&A developer and playtester, author of rulebooks and official FAQ and is in good contact with Larry Harris himself. He is active on axisandallies.org and www.harrisgamedesign.com and has appointed me (among a few others) to be his deputy in answering rules questions on a&a.org. I don't know anyone being more 100% than him. -
@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:
@panther I'll let you open them then. My suggestion is opening at least two issues, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, especially if there is the preference prioritizing correctly OOB only, and maybe more than that (since anyways there are a series of related details that are not supported either).
I hope you don't feel passed over... I just wanted to express that I have no doubt that this is a valid Github-issue and would not hesitate to open it (or them). I am absolutely fine if you want to do it instead.
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@panther Like I said, “Unless he’s an authoritative voice...”
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@panther You appear having a higher success percentage than I do in GitHub and I'm really not personally interested in Revised; mostly I believe everything not working as supposed should be tracked somewhere, really, and not get lost, if a GitHub issue is achieving that, or people eventually get convinced that how the engine works is correct (why they should not, if nothing is documented?).
Theorically one would think that LHTR should be more important than OOB, because it's practically the latest official version of Revised, but no doubt OOB is dominating in TripleA, both as a matter of the basic game getting played, as well as a basic ruleset used in a number of other custom games (cannot think of a single custom game LHTR based, actually).
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@bayder There is only 1 person more authoritative then him.
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@cernel I thought we weren’t supposed to discuss religion in the forums. (You are talking about Jesus, aren’t you Cernel?)
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In all seriousness, if the triplea leaders are accepting this interpretation on AA fire, I am of course 100% onboard.
Is it too soon to start the discussion of how AA gun possession and liberation is coded incorrectly?
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@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:
Summing up the bugs are:
What the engine does:
It resolves the AA flyovers immediately, to the extreme of letting you do, not only part of your moves, but even only part of a move for a same unit, see the AA flyovers, then use whatever movement you didn't yet use of any units, even comprising already partially moved ones.Indeed, that's what the engine does, as well in Revised OOB as in Revised LHTR.
For Revised LHTR:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them, together with the eventual AA fire in the attacked territory, during the first Opening Fire step of the Conduct Combat phase for the battle."Together" meaning both are resolved during that step:
"Remember that whenever an air unit encountered enemy antiaircraft guns in its combat movement, it means that you will need to resolve combat in that space, starting with the first antiaircraft gun encountered. If the first antiaircraft gun encountered was not at the main battle site, then once you conduct combat for the intermediate antiaircraft gun, you must then continue on with any other intermediate antiaircraft guns and then the main battle." (LHTR, page 12).For Revised OOB:
It should, instead, tally all the flyovers each air unit or group of air units is making, then resolve them at the very end of the phase where they happened, after all your movement is done, mainly the Combat Move phase and the Non Combat Move phase (in TripleA terms, right after you click on Done to finalize all your movements). Theorically, it should also let you decide the order in which you resolve the various groups, but this may be relevant only for a Revised OOB based custom game, as in Revised OOB you don't have any advantage in choosing such order.This is not only true for the Combat Move Phase and Noncombat Move Phase but for the Air Units that have participated in an attack and land at the end of the Conduct Combat Phase, too.
Remaining item for Revised OOB:
Since in Revised OOB (but not in Revised LHTR) the remaining movement of air that took part in a battle is done in the Conduct Combat phase (currently not supported by TripleA), not in the Non Combat Move phase, I'm not entirely sure when exactly that should be resolved (after the specific battle where these air units were involved or all together at the end of the Conduct Combat phase?).The fly-over AA fire that occurs during combat phase but after the battles, when air units having participated in battles land after flying-over enemy AA guns is resolved the same way - meaning all movement must be plotted before AA fire, too. As all combat happens at the same time (implying all air units landing at the same time, too).
Remaining item for Revised LHTR:
Since it was clarified that the way you assign AA casualties is by rolling separately all shots for fighters and for bombers, then taking out the resulting fighters and bombers casualties (that means you will take out the ones having the lower remaining movement first, instead of this being completely random, as in the case you would roll a dice for each plane singularly), what should, then, happen in the moment you may have to tally up the AA flyovers from the preceding Combat Move phase, and some of those shots were specifically assigned to aircrafts with a bigger remaining movement left? Must you, in this case, roll them before and separately from the AA shots you would be rolling for the AA that are in the embattled territory?The LHTR page 12 quote started above continues as follows:
"The defender rolls one die for each attacking air unit. An air unit is part of a group when the air
unit(s) have the same planned main battle site. Within any group of air units, you roll all anti-
fighter dice at once, then all anti-bomber dice. For each type of unit, the air unit owner allocates
hits amongst the air units that are being shot at. For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is
destroyed; its controller moves it into the casualty zone of the battle board."So all in all you roll "fly over" AA-fire separately from "battle AA" - and it is always the air unit's controller who chooses which air unit to take out - in case he has a choice.
But I must admit that I maybe do not completely understand your question, here.
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@panther I'd say you covered all my questions, and I think you can go ahead opening GitHub issues, except that maybe you should open one for Classic too, since that is the default for TripleA, and currently works the same way as any flyovers. So, practically, it would be 3 issues: one for Classic, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, unless you can bundle Classic with Revised OOB, detailing the differences. I'm actually not 100% sure about Classic, so I'm not going to say anything about that.
Just to be sure, do the air movements made during the Conduct Combat phase (not supported by TripleA, that here works like LHTR in any case) practically work the exactly same way as if they would be made during a special Non Combat Move phase, before the normal Non Combat Move phase, in which you can move only the air that did combat? I was wondering about that mostly since it makes me think of retreat, that, instead, you have to decide and make right upon ending the specific battle, before starting the next one. Anyways, since that allows you to see those flyover casualties before making eventual pure Non Combat movements for the air that didn't move yet, that would be an unsupported item that needs to be added too, otherwise TripleA won't be fully compliant with Revised OOB flyover rules.
A last thing. The fact that you roll for all bombers and all fighters separately (instead of actually rolling 1 dice for each one) (thus taking out the ones with lower movement left first) is a LHTR change or a clarification that applies to OOB too?
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@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:
@panther I'd say you covered all my questions, and I think you can go ahead opening GitHub issues, except that maybe you should open one for Classic too, since that is the default for TripleA, and currently works the same way as any flyovers. So, practically, it would be 3 issues: one for Classic, one for Revised OOB and one for Revised LHTR, unless you can bundle Classic with Revised OOB, detailing the differences. I'm actually not 100% sure about Classic, so I'm not going to say anything about that.
I will start with Revised soon, and put Classic on my todo-list (that needs some more investigation), unless someone else takes over.
Just to be sure, do the air movements made during the Conduct Combat phase (not supported by TripleA, that here works like LHTR in any case) practically work the exactly same way as if they would be made during a special Non Combat Move phase, before the normal Non Combat Move phase, in which you can move only the air that did combat? I was wondering about that mostly since it makes me think of retreat, that, instead, you have to decide and make right upon ending the specific battle, before starting the next one. Anyways, since that allows you to see those flyover casualties before making eventual pure Non Combat movements for the air that didn't move yet, that would be an unsupported item that needs to be added too, otherwise TripleA won't be fully compliant with Revised OOB flyover rules.
You are correct. When the "pure" Non Combat Move Phase begins, the returning-from-battles Air Units have been already shot at.
A last thing. The fact that you roll for all bombers and all fighters separately (instead of actually rolling 1 dice for each one) (thus taking out the ones with lower movement left first) is a LHTR change or a clarification that applies to OOB too?
For Revised OOB the official FAQ states:
"Is antiaircraft fire targeted against specific aircraft?
Yes. In practice, you can roll a handful of dice against all enemy fighters, then roll another handful
against all enemy bombers. The reason for this rule is so that bombers will be forced to take hits
from AA guns." -
@panther said in AA revised minor bug:
A last thing. The fact that you roll for all bombers and all fighters separately (instead of actually rolling 1 dice for each one) (thus taking out the ones with lower movement left first) is a LHTR change or a clarification that applies to OOB too?
For Revised OOB the official FAQ states:
"Is antiaircraft fire targeted against specific aircraft?
Yes. In practice, you can roll a handful of dice against all enemy fighters, then roll another handful
against all enemy bombers. The reason for this rule is so that bombers will be forced to take hits
from AA guns."Once again, while LHTR is very clear on this, I don't think that OOB clarification is that clear, instead. In the moment in which it answers "yes" to the question if it is "targeted against specific aircraft" I would think you are targeting the specific aircraft. What follows contradicts the principle of targeting specific aircrafts, and looks more like something merely practical, and I wonder if it actually acknowledges the factual game changer of being able to take aircrafts with lower remaining movement out first. If you are sure that clarification means that here OOB and LHTR work the same, I'm not contesting it; just saying this OOB clarification is much less clear than what you get in LHTR (as per usual).
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@cernel OK, I understand what you mean. But actually the term "Group" of air units is already introduced in Revised OOB (page 13).
When the rulebook on page 15 states "The defender rolls one die
(only one antiaircraft gun fires) for each attacking air unit. For every
roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed; "......that says: the defender rolls 5 dice for 5 attacking air units.
Rulebook says "For every roll of one, one attacking air unit is destroyed" not "that specific air unit is destroyed".The FAQ when addressing "Specific aircraft" simply separates Fighters from Bombers.
And LHTR more precisely defines what a "Group" actually is (a definition, OOB lacks).What is it that you concude from that even groups of aircraft are rolled aircraft by aircraft?
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@panther Out of the rulebook what I understand is that you would assign and roll one die for each attacking air unit and destroy it specifically if scoring a hit, differently from LHTR where you roll per group type and, consequently, will take out the aircrafts of the same type with lower movement left first. But it is not clear, and the FAQ appear hinting that, instead, it works the same way as LHTR; so I was asking for a definitive confirmation on that point.
Basically, short question is: can you surely confirm that in selecting casualties OOB works the exact same way as LHTR? -
@cernel In TripleA, how it works when you enable v2 rules is that the AA fire is targeted on the specific units, not group types.
So, I wanted to point out this matter too, while we are addressing the Revised AA bugs and inconsistencies of the program, as this is surely another AA related bug for "World War II Revised LHTR".
The matter that I substantially asked to be clarified and confirmed is if that is a bug for "World War II Revised" too, as well as the many tens of custom games supposed to work by v2 rules ("Big World", "World At War", etc.), or limited to LHTR only (which, instead, would probably mean only 1 game, as I'm almost sure no custom maps are default LHTR rules).
Of course, in solving this, it would be necessary to take care not to bug v3 off, if you can also confirm that in v3, instead, as a departure from LHTR, you target the specific unit, thus possibly taking out same aircraft types with higher movement left first (albeit also the v3 rulebook is a bit confusing on this point, as it affirms that there is no need to differentiate hits if all aircrafts are of the same type, without mentioning the case of same type but with different movement left; so I'm not 100% sure on this point, either, but almost so).
I think this would be better as a separate GitHub issue.
