No unit - except air units - should be allowed to move during both CM and NCM during the same turn

[prastle]

@Cernel i read your link before commenting and agree it should be left in engine. I also mentioned to hepps
i do believe a note should be made in the rules somewhere explaining this since it affects not just tanks

to be more specific i read your link in github before even commenting here

which included this link

http://tripleadev.1671093.n2.nabble.com/Movement-during-CM-and-NCM-tp6989743.html

thus my smile of your memory like an elephant! which is a good thing but just a slang term here i guess.

[Panther]

I hope you understand that I am not going to duplicate my Github-statements again. Please read through the respective issue(s) created there if interested.

I would vote for a solution, that correctly implements the rules compliance. If that goes along with keeping options for those who don't want that for whatever reason, that would be perfect.

And please don't let us start discussions about "stupid" rules. You either agree to what Veqryn said commenting on the issue "... our goal as always is to create a fully rules-compliant engine for all A&A versions." or you don't.

Personally I consider the discussed rule as a major principle of units movement thus far from being stupid. With whom do I have to discuss the stupidity of this specific rule now and any other game-rule in the future before opening the next "non-rules-compliant" issue?
This leads to nothing, IMHO.

[prastle]

@Panther I apologize if anything I said made you feel that it was upsetting. I think as @RoiEX said the best option would be an additional switch so it could be turned on or off. I do believe all agree it is a bug tho. The best example being @veq actually

"Seems kind of silly to be honest. If my guys can storm the beach with bullets in their face, I'm pretty sure they can storm the beach without bullets in their face...."

We also need to get some better rules/notes listing and describing these issues/bugs caused by this.

[Hepps]

@Panther I see your perspective... and it is certainly a valid one.

Personally, I think TA has developed to a point where its role has transcended its initial mission as a simple platform for cloning. Therefore I suggest the following...

1. Stay true to its roots of achieving complete adherence to the rules system which inspired its creation where...

A) It allows enough flexibility as to enable players and designers the freedom and ability to selectively choose as many or as few options as they wish.

B) It does not become a hard coded component of the engine where it will be the only option available and require an enormous investment of technical resources if and when an officially sanctioned "revised" or "amended" rule is implemented in the future.

In short I view it like dating an Olympic gymnast... the more flexibility you can get from it... the more enjoyment you can extract from it.

[Frostion]

I have always enjoyed having the freedom to non-combat move in the combat move phase. I would consider my self a casual player and don't play the board game maps in TripleA. Just all kind of other maps that have no reason to enforce this rule. Have there ever been an investigation into how many people actually non-combat most units in the combat move phase, instead of waiting? I can imagine this being a widespread practice, but I have no way to know.

In the maps I have made, the only reason that there are both combat and non-combat phases is that non-combat is required for moving flying units home, otherwise I would like to have my maps with only one move phase.

I would hate to see this freedom be taken from me and my play style. If an enforcement was to be made (available), I would hope it to be false/off as standard and activated via true/false in the XML. This way all the original Axis and Allies maps can chose to make use of the enforcement, and other maps/mapmakers can choose not to.

[Cernel]

@frostion Actually, this is not about removing the capability of making NCM during CM. This is only about disabling the ability to split a unit's movement between CM and NCM. However, the two matters are quite interrelated. Anyways, I will paste what I said in GitHub:

As I said, I think the two major rules that have never been enforced in TA are the limits that you can't do non combat movements during CM and the limit that you can't split movements between CM and NCM (aside from air).
For all a series of reasons, most of which I've detailed, I think both these so far unsupported limits should have opt-out properties, if implemented, because I just can't see how anybody may want to have these rules, but for the traditional games, for which they are to be followed.

[Cernel]

@frostion said in No unit - except air units - should be allowed to move as well in CM as in NCM:

In the maps I have made, the only reason that there are both combat and non-combat phases is that non-combat is required for moving flying units home, otherwise I would like to have my maps with only one move phase.

The other issue is that the AI doesn't see that tere is not NCM. Anyways, this is totally off topic, because in the moment you have only 1 movement phase, then there can be no split at all.

[redrum]

So based on the discussion both here and in github, I'm not really convinced that there is much value in being allowed to move non-air units during both CM and NCM. I'm leaning towards just changing this to align with official A&A rules.

While I do agree TA has gone beyond just being able to play A&A maps, they are still a core part of the platform and supporting official A&A rules as closely as possible is one of the goals. You could definitely argue this rule was created to simplify tracking movement points in the board game but having more complexity and options isn't always better.

We have many features and options that go well past A&A rules and will continue to develop more. But there is a balance where if an option doesn't really add much value then efforts to develop and support other more interesting features and properties is a better use of time and resources. I think addressing any of the features on the list we have provide more value than being able to move non-air units during CM and NCM.

I'll give it a few more days for folks to present reasons not to go in that direction before fixing this.

[Cernel]

@redrum Can you clarify if units starting in a hostile empty territory and not moving during CM will or will not be influenced by this (being able to move out during NCM, after having taken the territory without moving) and if being able to blitz will make a difference, in this case.

The other case I can think of, beside what I already said, is that it is currently supported to give the bonus movement before NCM; thus units may have additional movement they were not able to use during CM (for example, a blitz unit that receives a bonus movement before NCM, and would be able to move on to friendly), but I'm not aware of maps using this.

[prastle]

@redrum I can safely say i often move all my moves in combat even if they were not going into combat(Yes it often bites me in the ass! ) but if this is not affected by your changes it speeds game play. I could care less if we match the rules. I generally save the few non coms that i think might be needed elsewhere. jmho

edited in. I guess i should clarify. I think it would be nice if we could match the rules. I hope any changes will not affect the players that want to do non-com moves in combat. Also it would be nice if we could move aa in combat. Since everyone always forgets them like me because we cant. Finally I guess my issue is that if we cant do as Veq said, "Seems kind of silly to be honest. If my guys can storm the beach with bullets in their face, I'm pretty sure they can storm the beach without bullets in their face...." realistically I cannot recall a complaint of blitzing my second move if it didn't involve combat. As for the trannie issues etc its a rare thing. BUT YES current engine makes it possible.

So no matter what your decision is I think a few have made their points clear. The engine needs to support both. perhaps a switch? button that can be turned on and off like many maps? Either way GlHf GREAT JOB!

[Cernel]

@redrum I think you need to reword the title, as it is not clear this is only incidentally about making NCM in CM.

Also, I believe you should reword this phrase "All other units should only be allowed to both during one or the other", as I'm sure you agree it doesn't make sense (changing "both" to "either" would suffice, but I'd reword it more extensively; up to you).

Just a suggestion to help to make the topic clear.

[redrum]

@cernel said in No unit - except air units - should be allowed to move as well in CM as in NCM:

@redrum Can you clarify if units starting in a hostile empty territory and not moving during CM will or will not be influenced by this (being able to move out during NCM, after having taken the territory without moving) and if being able to blitz will make a difference, in this case.

Umm can you provide a map where this is possible? Is the only way this happens due to diplomacy changes (friendly/neutral turned hostile)? Do any A&A maps potentially have this happen?

[Cernel]

@redrum Yes. For example, you play Napoleonic Empires FFA and go to War and you have a land unit in an empty hostile territory or a ship in a empty hostile convoy zone. That unit will take the territory without moving, and will still be able to move, under the current behaviour (I suggest to keep). The other main case would be for limited combat rounds and no immediate take over, but I don't have a specific map in mind right now.

[Cernel]

@cernel Probably I'm thinking that if the unit is able to blitz, then it should be able to take without moving and then still going on in NCM, while if it is unable to blitz it should be blocked, despite not having moved, if it doesn't move out during combat movement.
Also, I believe that if the unit is able to blitz, then it should take the territory by moving out of it, but not if it is unable to, but this is off topic.

[redrum]

@cernel Alright. Most likely as long as they don't move during CM even if starting in a hostile territory then they'd still be allowed to move during NCM. You could definitely debate that a bunch of different ways especially for blitz vs non-blitz. Main point is that maps with open diplomacy are kind of undefined by A&A and we don't have many popular ones so the situation is fairly rare.

[Frostion]

For Info, I have made maps that has situations where units can generate/spawn other units in empty enemy territories. Like in Dragon War where the Zombie Plague unit spawns a Zombie unit every turn, and this can be in an uncaptured enemy territory, as the Zombie Plague unit can fly into enemy territories and end turn there. Right now the capture is not done "immediatel" (but I will set this in the next map update). Also in Age of Tribes there are trigger placed units that can be placed even if it is enemy territory. Maybe map Caribbean Trade War also have triggers that can place units in enemy territory, I think so. Mostly the instances with units in un-captured territories in my maps are because of trigger-placed and unit-spawned units and maybe because of unfinished battles because of limited combat rounds.

It was just info if it is needed

[redrum]

Fix for this issue: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/2352

[Cernel]

@redrum I post this as an example of how this rule, that I deem to be silly, can impact in a game.

This is the chat we just had:

Dany: what rule are we using for loading trannies?
tcurin: in terms of block?
Dany: now with new engine set up
Dany: we can load after combat
tcurin: if they were in combat, no
Dany: k because now they can't move combat and non combat
tcurin: this case we need to solve
tcurin: can i load these transports in NCM?
Dany: so has exemple they wont be able too come back in 24
tcurin: sz23
Dany: no they will be stuck in 232
tcurin: ok, solve that
Dany: but maybe they had for counter that they load after combat
Dany: since we use too move them away in combat and back in non combat
Dany: You were slapped by Dany
Dany: what do you think Cernel?
Cernel: let me read
Cernel: yeah no by revised rules you cannot load them in non combat
Cernel: if you moved them in combat
Cernel: which is dumb
Dany: but now engine allows load after combat
Dany: if they didnt move
tcurin: if i keep them in sz24
Cernel: yes because by revised rules you can load or unload (not both) after combat if you took part in a battle without unloading
tcurin: i would be able to load them?
Dany: yes
Dany: engine will alow
tcurin: that is wrong i guess
Dany: but not in previous version
Cernel: but if you move them away from the hostile zone, they count as having move during combat move, and don't have the special bonus of being able no load
Cernel: it is not wrong dany, just dumb
Dany: well i would like too adapt too new engine evently
Dany: to load after combat
tcurin: i would preffer that i can move them in CM phase and load them in NCM
Cernel: if those transports remain in 24 and take part in the battle without unloading, they will be able to load or unload but not both
Dany: since trannies don't have attacking value
Cernel: if you only move them away to 23 sea zone, they will be able to do nothing, during non combat move
Dany: so let's play with enigne rules Tcurin?
Dany: a load after combat allowed
Dany: ?
tcurin: ok
tcurin: but not unload?
Cernel: well, before being the engine rules, those are the revised rules; just the old engine gave freedom to the players to follow them or not
Dany: no engine won'T allow
Cernel: so as I said
Cernel: if you keep the transports in 24
Cernel: you should be able to either:
Cernel: 1) load them during non combat move, keeping what you loaded on board
Cernel: 2) now load something on them, and then unload it during non combat move
Cernel: but you should not be able to both load and unload in non combat move
tcurin: option 2 is not possible i guess?
Cernel: tho since the sea zone is hostile you cannot load in 24 sea zone now
tcurin: they are in battle zone
Cernel: correct
Cernel: so basically, in this situation only things you can do is either:
Cernel: 1) keeping them in 24 sea zone, do battle and in non combat move you will only able to load units on them and keeping such units on board
Cernel: 2) moving them away to 23 or 22 sea zone and do nothing else now and nothing else during non combat move
tcurin: yes
Cernel: realistically, what I believe you should be able to do is to move out to 23 sea zone in combat movement, then, during non combat movement, moving back to a cleared 24 sea zone and eventually load a...
Cernel: nd unload, but this is against the rules
tcurin: agree on that too
Dany: well it use to be that
Dany: engine allowed that before
tcurin: but let's follow rules on this, altough not ideal
Cernel: that is just because the engine didn't support those rules, but you were supposed to follow them anyways (since this is revised rules)

So, I'm not against enforcing this rule, as I said, since this is the actual rule for the basic Word War II Revised game, but I think it would be good to have either a property that, if set true, would allow to split movement of all units between combat and non combat movement or, even better, an option for define if each unit is able to still move during non combat movement if moved during combat movement or participated in a battle (default true if the unit is air, of course), and, then, a property for validating such option. This editable property (user option) can, of course, be added to World At War, I suppose off as default.

In the above case, this would allow the player to move those Russians transports from 24 Sea Zone to 23 Sea Zone during Combat Movement, then, during Non Combat Movement, go back to 24 Sea Zone and freely load and unload.

Tho I have to say that the recently added property for being able to load in hostile sea zones (not disposable in the mentioned game) goes a long way in reducing the distortive impact of this no-split movement rule.