Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread
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@Cernel Nothing like a ringing endorsement to build some excitement around a map!
I will provide you with a quote that I hope tempters your zeal for providing input...
"If you must tell me your opinions, tell me what you believe in. I have plenty of doubts of my own" Johann Wolfgang Goethe
I guess what I am saying is add something to the conversation more than just blanket criticism. If you have gone so far as to establish that the unit roster is imbalanced... would it not be more helpful to make some suggestions, perhaps identify which units are out of balance? For certainly you have already done the work to establish this if you have already made these determinations.
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@redrum said in Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official Thread:
@Cernel Well, better to release it and see if someone wants to provide feedback or take it over as it is a nice base map and units. I don't plan to balance and play test it myself but will do XML updates if someone provides feedback with proper justification.
Personally, if I would ever get interested in tweaking this map into full playability, I would rather make a variant of it, call it "ASoIaF Cernel", and do whatever I want with it. Why should I lose likely a lot of time attempting to convince anyone to agree to a number of changes when there is just no reason to it, in the moment nobody plays the game anyways?
@Hepps It's not so easy, as proposing a well made tweaking and rebalancing of this map would require a huge descriptive effort, but I believe I've at least touched most main points, with some suggestion changes, in my previous review, actually.
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@Cernel No reason to create a variant since if you want to take over the map then its yours
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I'm currently trying to improve the "A Song of Ice and Fire" map for fun. I am especially working on improving the units.
While I would like to improve the map itself, I am not that good at map design.
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@Greg-Anderson Cool. I'd be glad to review the changes and help you contribute them to the official map repo. Posting your thoughts here would be good.
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My main focus is on improving the units. I feel that they are too drab and their stats could be improved. I wish to include elements such as support and targeted attack/defense as well.
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@Greg-Anderson This is a great initiative: this map needs some love and TripleA needs some more good FFA! This map is abandoned and, in my opinion, not really playable, at its current state, so not much risk in changing it (I have never played it, and I don't think I'm even trying to play it, at its current state). But I'm totally down playtesting, if any efforts on it are made.
Be sure to read my review, if you intend to fix the map also from a gameplay standpoint:
Game of Thrones & A Song of Ice and Fire - Official ThreadAnd you can also take a look at this video made by @Götterdämmerung:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvuFic41FxMI'd suggest not to make it much more complex, however (supports and targeted attacks are interesting features, but add complexity).
In my opinion, the biggest issue, currently, is the excessive production of units, that would inevitably result in huge stacks, especially under FFA dynamics (conserving your TUV is very important), which means slowing down the game to no advantage (over a rather low limit, having more units doesn't really increase your strategic options).
Of course, one also needs to decide how the map is going to be played at all, to start with (I don't think it is realistic to assume you get as many human players as the total number of powers and, anyway, some powers like "Others" and "NightsWatch" appears to be intended for AI gameplay only, but, if so, this should be clarified).
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My suggestion is having it working like Feudal Japan, where each player takes one power and the rest are given to the AI, except that "Others" and "NightsWatch" are AI only. However, this is very challenging on balance (you would need to define a set of balanced powers per each number of participants).
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@Cernel I just read your review and I found your ideas fascinating. I will try to apply at least some of your ideas while improving the map.
I had tried playing this map about a week ago and I also found it virtually unplayable. I would like it to be similar to Frostion's map Middle Earth Battle for Arda, which is the best fantasy map in my opinion.
I'll post my updates here as I progress in the map overhaul.
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@Greg-Anderson Sounds good. I know Cernel will disagree with me but I really think the best direction to take the map is create a 2 sided rather than FFA version. That would make it more playable given the large number of nations and avoid needing lots of AI players. And I agree that Battle for Arda is one of if not the best fantasy map (though its not Frostion's).
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@redrum Sorry, I often get confused as to who created what map since some maps have several creators.
I'll take your ideas into consideration as well.
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@Cernel @redrum I just wanted to post an update with some of the unit art I plan on using. Let me know what you think.
The base unit art is from units in Battle of Wesnoth, but I have modified them to fit the chosen powers.
Here are the planned infantry/cavalry units for House Greyjoy. I will probably keep the siege and naval unit art the same.
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Here is what I'm currently planning as a first step to making the map playable.
- Finish the unit art for all the powers.
- Rebalance all the unit stats.
- Add targeting and support for some units.
- Balance unit cost.
- Regenerate unit placement.
After that, the map should be partially playable.
Then, there would be part 2:
- Review national objectives and decide whether they should be kept.
- Make Nights Watch and Others AI only.
Now what could be done but I'm not good at:
- Improve the borders.
- Maybe simplify the current map skin to avoid confusion.
If I have forgotten something, please let me know.
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@Greg-Anderson Personally (and this is just an opinion from someone that has nothing to do with this map), I have no major problems with the units art, actually, but yours look very good (and this is just an opinion from someone that know next to nothing about how the units should look). However, I'm not seeing such different styles mixing well with each other, if you plan to keep the current images for part of the units.
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@Cernel I will try to make sure the unit art clashes as little as possible. I think I may have a solution for the naval unit art. My main problem is with the siege unit art, which I might have to keep unless I find a solution.
My main problem with the original unit art is that it was so drab. I feel that good unit art is important to make a map popular.
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Currently, I'm working on the unit art for the Lannisters, Free Cities, Dothraki, and Martells.
I plan on having 7 cavalry/infantry units per power. Each power will have around 1 leader-type unit with leadership support. There will also be 2 cheap fodder units, 2 mid-ranged units, and 2 elite units per power.
I took the Morder power from Battle for Arda into consideration when planning the number of infantry/cavalry units per power.
The Mordor power had the Snaga skirmishers and orc marauders as cheap fodder units. Then, the mid-ranged units were the Uruk warrior and Uruk pikeman, which both had some support and targeting abilities.
There were also the spider and Olog hai, which were both elite units that were very useful but also expensive. Then, there was the winged Nazgul, which was the leader unit.
As always, I am open to all suggestions and feedback.
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The unit art is almost finished. I'm just finishing the recoloring and rescaling the units.
I'll post them all once they are finished.
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Here are the units for each power. I am listing based on the pictures I just showed.
Greyjoy
Bowman-Reaver-Crossbowman-Raider-Horseman-IronLord-SwordsmanLannister
Bowman-LionLord-GoldCloak-Horseman-GrandKnight-Pikeman-KingsguardTully
Horseman-Swordsman-Pikeman-Sellsword-RiverLord-Halberdier-RiverArcherArryn
ValeGuard-Bowman-Swordsman-EliteWarrior-General-Knight-MountainClansmanDothraki
Arakhman-Slave-Scout-Bloodrider-HorseArcher-Khal-HorsemanFree Folk
Pikeman-BearRider-Giant-Swordsman-Axeman-Bowman-WildlingChiefBaratheon
Kingsguard-HammerWarrior-Swordsman-StagRider-Spearman-Crossbowman-PrinceStark
Watchman-Axeman-Bowman-Horseman-Direwolf-Swordsman-WardenTyrell
MasterWarrior-Bowman-Pikeman-General-Horseman-CityGuard-ShockTrooperMartell
General-DuneRanger-Spearmaster-Spearman-HorseArcher-SpearThrower-BowmanTargaryen
Dragon-Bowman-Unsullied-Pitfighter-Knight-Arakhman-QueensguardFree Cities
Horseman-FacelessMan-Sellsword-Slave-WaterDancer-SeaLord-UnsulliedOthers
WhiteWalker-StrongWight-WeakWightNeutrals
Swordsman-Sellsword-Spearman-Horseman-Pikeman-Giant-BowmanNOTE: Each power (except neutral) has three unique units.
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@Greg-Anderson Looking good. FYI, the Martell Bowman is missing a shadow. You'll also want to consider how you want to indicate player ownership. You can just recommend players set the unit flags on in the game. Some games also actually dye the units a color or use some form of built in roundel/flag (Total World War) for example.
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