Sub XML Properties

redrum

@general_zod Good explanations! I've added them to the original post.

Hepps

Ignore Sub In Movement - Allows naval units to bypass subs during movement phase (both combat and non combat). Also allows units ending moves in a SZ occupied by an enemy sub with the choice to either attack or ignore enemy sub.

Sub Retreat Before Battle - Allows option for subs to withdraw from battle prior to the combat rolls.

redrum

@hepps - Regarding #4, does that also make 'isDestroyer' units stop sub movement? And if units with 'isDestroyer' end in SZ with sub do they still have the choice not to attack the sub? Or is that all controlled with a different property?

Regarding #6, if its 'false' then subs get withdraw option at the end of each combat round instead of beginning?

prastle

Defending Subs Sneak Attack = They have first strike when defending as well unless a destroyer is present.

Submersible Subs = The same as number seven. Except seven adds the ability to withdraw

Hepps

@redrum said in Sub XML Properties:

@hepps - Regarding #4, does that also make 'isDestroyer' units stop sub movement? And if units with 'isDestroyer' end in SZ with sub do they still have the choice not to attack the sub? Or is that all controlled with a different property?

I don't think #4 governs any part of the "isDestroyer" capabilities. And yes... even if a unit has "isDestroyer" they still have the option as to whether they want to attack the sub or ignore it.

Regarding #6, if its 'false' then subs get withdraw option at the end of each combat round instead of beginning?

Yes I believe without it they retreat normally as per all other units. *** It is also important to note that WITH it a sub is given the opportunity to retreat prior to as well as with all the other units.

Hepps

@redrum said in Sub XML Properties:

Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted - Sub Control Sea Zone Restricted should be FALSE if there are any convoy zones! If true, subs will not be able to capture convoy zones.

I do believe that this property also needs to note that it governs (quite literally) whether or not a sub controls a SZ.

And as a reference for you Red.... TWW utilizes: 2,4,5,6,8,9.

prastle

@hepps Another important thing about nine is that it also means transports cant unload if a sub is present I believe. Which you covered with your Sub controlling a sz. point. Perhaps that should be stated in there as well.

General_Zod

@redrum

Should probably also add a couple points for thoroughness. I'm using .3635 to test these items.

Submarines Prevent Unescorted Amphibious Assault -

a. If "true" submarine units are being counted as escorts. (not sure if this was intended)

b. Combat transports are unaffected by this property, which is good.

Ignore Sub In Movement -

a. If set to "true". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") can be bypassed (move through) if desired, by all naval units ("isSea"). If any combat sea unit stops in submarines sea zone on CM , they get a "yes or no" prompt asking if they want to attack the submarines. But if no destroyer is present, the submarine can simply submerge.

b. If set to "false". During CM or NCM, the enemy submarine units ("isSub") stop movement (block) of all naval units ("isSea"). The "yes or no" prompt does not popup anymore if stopping in the submarines sea zone on CM. I guess attacking is implied now. Can't move into battle during NCM.

Message Center would say "Enemy units on path" while trying to move a naval unit past a submarine, if set to "false".

The only exception is for other submarine units which do not block each other on CM or NCM. I don't recall if submarines ever block each other and if so what property controls it. I'll check it out.

c. Destroyers ("isDestroyer") + (isSea) units are also blocked by submarines (isSub) if above is set to "false". The "yes or no" prompt does not popup anymore if stopping in the submarines sea zone on CM. Can't move into battle during NCM

prastle

@general_zod Great explanation

Hepps

@general_zod said in Sub XML Properties:

@redrum

Should probably also add a couple points for thoroughness. I'm using .3635 to test these items.

Submarines Prevent Unescorted Amphibious Assault -

a. If "true" submarine units are being counted as escorts. (not sure if this was intended)

As far as your point about a. I believe this property is simply being used to verify that an "escorting" unit with an attacking combat value is present. Regardless of what type of "isSea" unit it is.

Some of the other things that might be worth examining in this investigation are how certain of these properties interact... and which are not compatible at all.

General_Zod

@hepps
Yes as point 3.a) goes, I agree. Most likely the logic behind it was, if it's "isSea", and has an attack value. Then it can potentially be killed, or if no destroyer present, at a minimum can force the sub to make a choice. Fight to stop the amphibious landing, or submerge.

Just at first glance submarines don't fit the traditional escort mold, for amphibious landings.

I'm not sure, what exactly you mean on second part of reply.

Captain Crunch

@redrum hey if these changes/updates effect the subs for the WWIIClassic map then please let me know when you change it so I can do a test match ... it's been awhile!

Hepps

@captain-crunch The change's aren't meant to affect any map.... the purpose of this exercise is to potentially make some sub behaviors available independently of the all encompassing property of "isSub".

General_Zod

@hepps

Let me try again, hehe. I missed a key part.

Yes as point 3.a) goes, I agree. Most likely the logic behind it was, if it's "isSea", and has an attack value. Then it can potentially be killed (the preventing sub) , or if no destroyer present, at a minimum can force the preventing sub to make a choice. Fight the escort(s) to stop the amphibious landing, or submerge. Even if the escort is a sub itself.

So I guess a sub can be an escort, against another sub.

Just at first glance submarines don't fit the traditional escort mold, for amphibious landings.

I'm not sure, what exactly you mean on second part of reply.

Hepps

@general_zod What I meant by that is that it would be a worth while endeavour for us while we are examining these properties... to look at which of all these properties are compatible and which cause interference which each other.

redrum

Lots of good feedback. I've updated the first post trying to summarize everyone's posts so far.

General_Zod

@hepps
Yeah , I agree. They are a hodgepodge. It will be good to wrangle all submarine related properties into a more comprehensible state. From there we can analyze and review with more certainty. What is doing exactly what.

redrum

So I did some reading through the code to figure out what #8 actually does and found that it covers most of the differences between classic and revised:

Subs can travel through enemy sea zones except if enemy destroyer is present.
Subs have the option to submerge rather than withdraw.

Also took a look at classic to determine what base sub rules are with no properties set:

First strike only on attack
Can't attack air units
Attacking subs can withdraw at end of each round to where naval units attacked from
Defending subs can withdraw at end of each round to adjacent friendly or empty sea zone

redrum

@Hepps I noticed that TWW sub rules are almost the same as ww2v3. Is there a reason you are using #9 and not using #10?

Hepps

@redrum I believe it had to do with how some units in SZ can change ownership. Ie Autraila turns into British. I believe... don't quote me as it was 8 years ago.