Edit mode, tool or gamefeature

ice1

yes this etiquette is what we need, but in the past this was allouwing an edit here and there wich ofcource is fine. no need to destroy a 6 hour game because of a silly thing.

but nowadays this etiquette is use edit mode freely without question. and the user is the judge, this is my problem

i have seen illigal moves due to edit mode, and in bigmaps with lots of units it can be hard to spot wich unit came from where and moved when, especially when edit mode is used as a gamefeature meaning maybe 3 times in 5 minutes in some cases. i come back from toilet and have to check every single move is not entirly foolproof imo.

hopefully more people get my point and see this culture problem

I do think a solution could be that atleast the regulars and especially the mods could agree on a new etiquette and try to enforce this as much as possible even if it means loosing some units in a close battle because hey, you made a mistake!

ice

Panther

@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:

but nowadays this etiquette is use edit mode freely without question. and the user is the judge, this is my problem

Are you addressing specifically lobby games?

I am just asking, as in Play by Forum games I cannot reproduce that.
On this forum here PbF is pointless. But on A&A .org a large community is playing exclusively PbF games . And over there Edit Mode in general is used either on the basis of a general agreement before the game starts or in cases people forgot about an agreement before Edit Mode is based on an agreement during the game.

I don't like playing TripleA via the Lobby personally so I cannot tell to what extent Edit Mode is abused there. But reading your text it appears to be problematic specifically in lobby games.

However in tournament games the rules usually are fixed. And a player can address the tournament director / judge in case the rules are broken.

For casual games the etiquette is what the players agree on. And who violates the rules breaking core game rules looses, IMHO. You don't need a moderator for this simple rule.

(Are there moderators monitoring games as sort of judges?)

ice1

@panther yes lobby games,

and about the mods, my suggestion is simpel that they could lead in example by trying to disencourage this edit culture

no they arent judging this and defenatly shouldnt

in the end it comes down to this agreement, but yeah i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures wich in my oppinion is world upside down

:))

Panther

@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:

and about the mods, my suggestion is simpel that they could lead in example by trying to disencourage this edit culture

But how would they come to know about the abuse of edits - when they are not participating in a game?

@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:

but yeah i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures wich in my oppinion is world upside down

I don't agree here. It is common use in every game between two or more people that they agree on rules and to which degree "manual intervention" might be acceptable or not.
Cheating IMHO is independent from that. In case someone betrays leave him alone.

If someone cheated this would not be prevented by any "written etiquette". Cheating is a behaviour that doesn't care about rules, etiquettes, laws, whatever...

Anyway: Good discussion!

ice1

@panther

yeah currently some moderators are the people who are abusing edit mode and are unaware of any faults by doing so, hence i hope i can get atleast 1 lobby mod into this discussion

about the cheating, im not saying this is intentional, im pretty sure those are accidents but easaly made by overuse of edit mode

ice

mortetvie

At everyone, I am the opponent of Ice in this issue. We were playing Domination 1914 NML which is a large, complex map, with a lot of moving pieces. We had also previously allowed numerous edits over the course of play and Ice never once complained about edits until towards the end.

So for him to raise these issues in this manner without first clearly articulating and discussing with me is not the best way to resolve any such raised concerns in my opinion.

I address his comments from above, as well as comments he made to me directly in game chat, below.

@ice1

There are numerous issues with what you raised.

Using Edit Mode Generally:

You have expressed that edit mode it is not a "game feature", "allowed by rules", and generally "cheating" if used. I told you that I disagree but you insist it is a form of cheating.

It is rude to imply someone is cheating as there is a difference between making an edit reflecting something that was a legitimate move that could have been performed had the player not forgotten on their turn versus an edit of the nature of moving something 5 places instead of 2 because you want an advantage.

I believe that if someone, on their same turn (e.g. still making moves for one of their nations), forgets to move an infantry or something of that nature and its the placement phase of the game where they can't do non-combat, I see no problem with using edit mode to make moves they already could have made. This should be true too if you have two back to back nations (UK->Russia game order) and you realize in Russia you forgot to move a UK unit, edit should be no problem.

Again, You said you disagree and viewed that as cheating and abusing edit mode. We'll have to agree to disagree as regardless how often that type of edit is used, it is not changing the outcome of anything the opponent could have done/reacted to and should be allowed.

You have also expressed concern between the time a player has to react to something they missed (e.g., I didn't realize I needed to block or move differently please let me do something differently to compensate before you make any moves). To the extent that could be caught, I believe in friendly games it should be allowed.
You also mention the time to realize a mistake affects things, and while true, it still does not hurt to ask for an edit and see what the opponent says. This will be addressed below.

The final point in this section is if you choose not to edit because of some internal moral code, that is your choice but does not reflect on your opponent.

Our Game:

However, in our game, any edits performed reflected legitimate moves I could have made but forgot to make and when edited, they were done in the same game turn of the nation being edited except in rare cases where (1) It was moving UK in Russia where Russia comes directly after; and (2) if it was after the nation moved, I specifically asked you for that edit and told you what was being edited.

Also in our game, you made the comment that it is not fair to use Edit mode because once Germany makes moves and France responds to those moves, its too late for an edit to take place. You have to realize that this is true for any nation. However, the specific context in our game is as follows:

You failed to notice UK (from the previous round) obtained merchant marine tech and moved German boats without realizing that. France then moved to attack German boats to soften up for UK boats to hit. After the combat you made a statement that you didn't realize that tech was obtained.

-First, that tech was obtained 4 nations prior (including UK) so you actually DID have time to pay attention and notice.
-Second, that was a mistake easily avoidable by checking the chart that shows what nation has what tech.
-Third, IF you said something about it AND actually ASKED for an edit, I would have allowed it.

Finally, there are many moves I did NOT ask for edits for, that were very game changing. For example, you took south Africa and Australia factories from UK when all I needed to prevent that was build ONE infantry there and I never asked for such edits. There were also many moves I intended to do, but forgot and never asked for edits.

You are picking and choosing things to complain about without giving or accepting the full context of what took place. If edits bother you that much, discuss with your opponent at start of game. Also, communicate with your opponent your concerns as they come up rather than create a post about it without their knowledge.

In any event, I don't think it is right to allow edits, in a game, then complain about them halfway through the game and say your opponent is cheating by using them, then complain on forums about it without first clearly discussing what is bothering you and why with your opponent.

I hope we can continue our save but if not, I understand. Wish you the best, cheers.

Final point:
Once edits are allowed and to the extent any edits made reflect legitimate moves that could have been made on your own turn, there is no right to complain about THOSE edits. Making such edits is not the same as cheating.

KurtGodel7

In his post, ice raises a valid point. Edits which result in cheating could happen, and have happened in some of my games. But, I have not seen mortetvie engage in any "cheating type" edits.

In chess tournaments, there is a rule that if you touch a piece, you must then move that piece. With TripleA, how close should we be to that "touch a piece" mindset? Opinions on that vary.

Is the "touch a piece" mindset more moral than a casual approach to edits?

I personally believe that if something makes the world a worse place, it is immoral. Stealing, for example, is immoral, because the world would be worse off if everyone stole, than it would be if no one stole.

My own personal view is that edits do not violate any moral principle, so long as they are not "cheating type" edits. This means that a) the player must see the mistake himself, rather than have it be revealed by an opponent's move, b) edits should not be used to undo bad die rolling, and c) die rolling should always be resolved against the person requesting an edit.

If edits are disallowed, players must put more effort in each turn, to minimize the need to correct after-the-fact mistakes. That means slower turns. For me personally, that would mean less enjoyment per hour played. Life is short, and every minute is sacred.

But that's just how I see things; and I respect the fact that there are those who will see things differently.

ice1

@mortetvie wel this is way out of line, if you look back you can see that this post is prior to our game incident , and never did i took our game as an example.

i had multiple bad experiences with different people about edit mode and our game made me take this concern here.

your points are redicules and nowhere near the truth, it yust proves my point on how you legalise an illigal feature.

i wasnt making a fight, your turning it into it.

its fine with me if this is the moderators vieuw on the matter, ill indeed have to be very careful on who to play in the future

good luck

ice

mortetvie

@ice1

Nothing I said was untrue but I welcome you to demonstrate any untruth with a specific example or evidence. To the extent I am incorrect, I will acknowledge that.

Also, I was not aware of, nor did you ever tell me about this post until after you already complained to me. So that is true and that comment is not intended to offend you. I was not aware of this post until I logged in this afternoon and I am not trying to pick a fight with you, but you have actually been attacking me from the start.

Ultimately, the problem is highlighted by your comment "how you legalise an illigal feature." It is your opinion that it is an illegal feature and your opinion is what is causing the conflict.

You have to understand that this game is a digital representation of a board game that used to be played in person. There is the need to digitally accomplish situations like "I forgot to move X units from Y territory" which would be done physically and understood and allowed during in person games without issue.

Using the edit feature is the digital way to accomplish making legitimate moves that the digital game engine does not otherwise allow for various reasons (e.g., moving an infantry unit in placement phase).

I am sorry you had a bad experience in the past, or even in our game. However, you need to understand that using the edit mode to make moves you could otherwise have made but forgot to make is not cheating.

KurtGodel7

@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:

its fine with me if this is the moderators vieuw on the matter, ill indeed have to be very careful on who to play in the future

It is often the case that moderators' opinions vary, depending on the moderator. If the admins and lobby rules are silent on a particular subject, each mod is free to use his own best judgement. You might play some other mod, and find that he's as opposed to edits as you appear to be. This is a "personal preference" thing, not a TripleA rules thing.

To avoid friction in the future, before starting a game you might want to discuss the circumstances under which edits will or won't be allowed. If both of you have the same expectations about edits going into a game, and if those expectations are met, it's unlikely much edit-based dissatisfaction will arise. I'm saying this not in my role as a moderator, but in my role as a fellow TripleA player. Anything which reduces interpersonal disagreements, so that we can focus on the game, is a good thing.

ice1

@kurtgodel7
i agree with allot here, unfortunatly i have no further interest in this discussion

a mod is being extreemly disrespectful to me and has his facts upsidedown. never ever did i call him a cheater or anyone else for that matter. i gues reading is difficult.
and again this post was not about him its about the edit culture. and sure he can have a different oppinion but this is yust a very hostile way to make a point.

our incident wasnt even on this matter, it was about my edit on a gamefeature wich he already appologised for, so imo was done no idea whats up now

ill yust let any furter attack from him be as im sure he will make up more stuff and i have no interest in that

ice

mortetvie

@ice1

Wish you all the best, but you did say many times in different ways that Edit is an "illegal game feature" and in our game, you said it was cheating. On this forum alone you said:

" i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures"

and

"it yust proves my point on how you legalise an illigal feature."

Saying someone is using an "illegal game feature" is the same as saying they are chearing. The fact is, you are wrong in maintaining that the edit feature is an illegal one.

You also did reference me and our game when you said:

"yeah currently some moderators are the people who are abusing edit mode and are unaware of any faults by doing so, hence i hope i can get atleast 1 lobby mod into this discussion "

Again, wish you all the best but please be honest about what you were doing in this forum post.

ice1

@mortetvie where are the written rules about edit mode being a gamefeature, why is this a fact? can i read them? would very much like to read the official edit rule!

what are the rules of tripple a games? as long as im around the rulebooks of axis and allies from larry harris, so for v1 use the classic rulebooks, for v2 revised etc

edit mode is a houserule, and in my 1000's of games this was a rare feature, ofcource it is used but only every now and then. and most importandly asked before used

why cant i question this change in volume of edits by diffetent people in the lobby including modsss

im not sure why you are so offended. i think you saw a word you didnt like and reacted to that, you saw cheat but didnt see the whole sentence, unintentional cheating. im not sure if i should have used a different word for that. english isnt my native language so for that im deeply sorry

none of ur points are vallid, and you see ghosts

ice

mortetvie

@ice1

For the sake of argument, where in the written rules is the "save" function listed as a game feature? Since it is not discussed in the rules, if you have to save the game, do you lose and is that an "illegal game function?"

By your logic, use of game tools to accomplish legitimate purposes is not allowed. If you think using edit feature to move units you forgot during your turn is illegal, I am sorry, but that is not reasonable in my opinion.