Player Bonus Settings Revamp

Black_Elk

Real quick, just to explain why I said I thought that having the bonus assigned by player nation would be cool. I was thinking about this mainly from a PvP perspective, because I think it's a novel and relatively simple way to balance these types of games by sides. Of course it also has applications for the AI, but it doesn't have to be exclusive to the AI.

So just as an example in a game like v5 or v6, (both of which are heavily slanted towards Axis), the Russian or American player might be awarded a smaller recurring income bonus rather than a large pre-placement bid, as a way to correct the perceived imbalances baked into those games.

Or similarly if a player is inexperienced with a particular map, it is likely much more forgiving on the newb to receive a moderate recurring income bonus that kicks in every round, as opposed to a large one-time bid that they might not even know how to use effectively for that particular map.

So its more than just a suggestion aimed at the AI, it's a proposed alternative to the bidding process that could serve as a standard game option. I like this for a number of reasons, but the main one is that it's somewhat less disruptive to the opening round/turn than bid, which allows the map creator to still craft a cool script, with all the expected 'gives and takes' or interesting TUV trades, by pushing out the advantage over several rounds.

I like that in the last pre-release you had the option to give universal income bonus to all AI players or an option to assign the Bonus individually by Player Nation.

I still think it might be helpful to have a universal AI bonus by team/side. Since then you have a couple nice default options for designing the income balance for any particular match, that allows a good degree of customization with either a Bid or Bonus (or both if desired.)

I think there is room for a flat rate/percentage toggle. Just make these like a single checkbox, so it doesn't take up a ton of UI space to switch between them.

My comment about playing mainly with percentage lately might be more about the specific maps I've been playing.

I think flat rate might also be closer to the table top experience for some players. Where having a hard number is just more convenient or more potent than a percentage.

One thing I've always loved (and which requires constant editing) is the idea of ascending flat rate income bonuses. So the idea of round 1 = +1 PU, round 2= +2 PU and so on. It's a fun way to up the stakes as the game goes on. Or conceivably you could do a descending penalty -1 PU per round. And it could be a way to encourage/discourage game resolution depending the desires or the playgroup.

I think you could cover a lot of ground with a limited number of options, but I certainly still see the possibilities of allowing the ability to do the same types of things with production capacity. I just don't know that I'd want them default attached to one another because they could be used to do different things. Like you could create a high economy for a low production map, or vice versa. Or Similarly you could just create a high economy with high production version of the map.

I think each of these options are put into effect according to player preference. Some people like to restrict the money/units/production that enter play as a way to speed things up. Others prefer the opposite. So I like the idea of more options.

Probably easier to keep flat rate on offer. I think it could be just like a universal switch. For the field to be percentage or flat rate.

I also don't know which would be more interesting for something like fuel. Or for other resources that are meant to either be diminishing over time, or expanding over time. So it just seems like it would be cool to have options there.

For the A&A style maps, I think there are some simple standards that could develop PvP. More complex maps, (I've been playing Iron War mostly) have me just wanting more options to tweak the income for the AI to make it challenging, so I like having all the things, for as far as the UI has the space.

Cernel

@Black_Elk In my mind, from a traditional boardgame perspective, the cleanest way to give a better bonus than a bid, to rebalance the setup without altering its concept too much, would be a per player flat bonus that also adds the same placement bonus in the capital, that would equal just increasing a capital income.
For example, to rebalance WWIIv6 I could give a "Capital Production Bonus" of 3 (and we could bid about its value), that would have these effects:

Give +3 PUs Russians start game
Increase Russians income collection of 3 PUs per round (flat bonus, but only as long as you can collect / have your capital)
Increase Russians placement abilities in capital by 3

However, I think this concept is not sound for TripleA, since you may have games having a number of capitals per player different from 1.

Another thing I thought is that there may be a boolean option for the percent bonus also giving a starting bid equal to that same percent of the player's starting TUV, but I discarded this proposal, as I believe it would be just kind of strange, that is probably better letting the players manage to set both a percent bonus and some bids themselves. Of course, this would dramatically increase the effect of the percent bonus, if it also increases starting TUV accordingly, in the form of a bid. Moreover, it would need stricter bid rules, in which you can only place 1 unit per territory and only in a territory having already exactly that type of unit.
For example, this would mean that in v6, if you give a 10% income bonus to Russians, then Russians also get 8 bid.

Frostion

I have a question concerning the new individual player bonus income percentage.
I think it ruins the simplicity of the "Map Options" window when every and all players are displayed like this:

I think this option displayed in the Maps Options window needs to be changed somehow. On maps like TWW and Iron War the many players makes this option display massive amounts of text. It really floods the screen, ruins the simplicity and the overview.

Would it not be possible to handle this feature with some sort of drop-down list. Like if there in the Map Option windows were only one case of “Player Bonus Income Precentage” displayed followed by drop down menus “Player” and “Percentage“. Or alternatively, just “Player Bonus Income Precentage” followed by one drop down menu “Player” and then a box that changed the percentage number displayer if another player in the dropdown menu is chosen? Something like the Human/Hard AI/Fast AI etc. drop down menu when stating games.

PS: Also, it would be cool to have any alliances be represented in the player dropdown list, like if the top of the player list included a ”All Axis” and ”All Allies”.

redrum

So my end goal for AI bonus settings is something similar to HOI4 as I think its one of the better systems I've seen: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-development-diary-12th-of-august-2016-read-op-edit.962543/

There will be a 'default' for all maps that is used if a map doesn't specify anything in the XML. But the parameters will also be available to map makers so they can create the number of different levels with different bonuses. I'd like to have at least 'income %', 'income flat', and 'production %' available. Also they will be able to set whether the bonus slider is available or not for each nation (so might not want bonus sliders for neutral players or minor players).

I'm also planning to move the AI bonuses out of the settings window and into the player selection window as it makes more sense there.

I'm thinking the default will be something like the following but still up for discussion:
Level 1 - +20% income, +10% unit production limit
Level 2 - +40% income, +20% unit production limit
Level 3 - +60% income, +30% unit production limit
Level 4 - +80% income, +40% unit production limit
Level 5 - +100% income, +50% unit production limit

@Cernel - I glanced through some of your posts but that's just too much to read honestly. The one thing I'll confirm is that I plan to completely remove the existing parameters and do understand there are a few maps that used these existing AI bonus parameters (such as AI challenges). Most of the older maps that used them are no longer balanced with the new AI and the other couple of maps are recent and still maintained so can be updated to the new system.

Cernel

@redrum said in AI Bonus Settings Revamp:

@Cernel - I glanced through some of your posts but that's just too much to read honestly.

Ok. I believe this is the most important section:

.Starting Resources Multiplication

First of all, an important matter and a whole point I just missed (damn), when putting forward my suggestions, which may well be considered a regression we all overlooked!
In the moment in which I suggested and we agreed to move the bonus from multiplying the PUs stock before purchase to multiplying the PUs flux (the main reason here being not multiplying saved income), we are not anymore multiplying starting income! This is a functionality lost in the old one, where the income everyone had at start game would have been multiplied accordingly, right before the first purchase for that player.
I think this is quite an important matter, especially with reference to the traditional games, where the starting PUs are equal to the starting productions, thus it is nonsensical that players would get more units to buy on round 2 onwards, for the same total production, while not having any bonus on their purchases on round 1. This would have a continuity-breaking feeling as, in the normal games, the PUs the players start with is supposed to be the PUs they would have collected in the round before round 1 (most games don't start at the start of the referring war, but sometimes in the course of it, usually 1942).
So, I think you should add this point as one of the ones at the starting post of the Topic (a point I would have surely added myself, amongst the ones you pasted, had I not just overlooked it totally!):

- Having it multiplying all starting resources, assigned to the respective players (in resource initialize) (particularly important when we multiply placement abilities too).

This is particularly important relatively to the other point about the multiplication of placement capabilities, otherwise, in standard games, the placement multiplication would be not justifiable for the first turn of the benefitted players. Probably not much of a big deal, practically, but it would be a nonsensical element, in the system, making it unrefined.
Moreover, if all starting PUs are multiplied, I think this would be generally more sound for the general impact of the AI bonuses, and lowering the perceived need of assigning both the percent bonus and a bid, too, as the starting PUs multiplication would partially cover the popular balancing-through-bid concept, making the AI bonus alone more self-sufficient, at least as a matter of the feel of it.
Of course, this should apply to other resources, than PUs, just as much as the regular multiplication would.
I think this is practically a regression from the old system, that has to be corrected by assuring the multiplication of all PUs (and any resources) assigned at start game (in the resource initialize).
I actually now think that the main, or maybe only reason, why the old AI bonuses worked that strange way of multiplying what you have before purchase (instead of what you collect) was exactly to assure multiplying the starting income too! I'm not even sure if moving the multiplication from stock to flux (which I suggested) can be considered a net improvement, if we lose this dynamic.
A warning, just in case, is to avoid multiplying the PUs earned when not using some of the assigned bid (the bid getting saved should not be multiplied; only the resources in resources initialize).

redrum

@Cernel So that is correct that it currently isn't multiplying starting PUs just PUs produced during turns. I'm aware of this and not sure how I feel about it. My initial thought is that the new system is simpler as it just focuses on giving bonuses to actual income and initial balancing would be handled through bids. But I can see your point as well.

I think I'll add a comment to the first post around starting resources and see what other players think.

Hepps

@redrum Starting could be handled easy enough by the map maker by the map maker or the player with an Edit.

Either a mod(s) could be made which adjusts the starting income based on the scenario... it could simply be referenced in the game notes.

redrum

@Hepps True though my goal for TripleA as a whole is that Edit mode should be a last resort for regular games (mostly should just be used if a mistake was made or something isn't working properly).

I mostly just want the available AI bonus parameters to be straightforward and feel intuitive. So if you were to say I want my AI opponents to get '+25% income' would I expect the initial resources to be increased by that as well?

Cernel

@redrum said in AI Bonus Settings Revamp:

I'm thinking the default will be something like the following but still up for discussion:
Level 1 - +20% income, +10% unit production limit
Level 2 - +40% income, +20% unit production limit
Level 3 - +60% income, +30% unit production limit
Level 4 - +80% income, +40% unit production limit
Level 5 - +100% income, +50% unit production limit

Uhm, I'm thinking it would be better to allow for defining the percentage, I mean having an almost continuous slider, giving the ability of setting +25%, if wanted, without having to jump from +20% to +40%. That would allow fine-tuning a challenge, trying to inch till the uppermost level you can manage to win vs the AI. If having steps, I suggest them being 5% each (5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%...).

Also, I don't see why having the placement increasing half than the income? As I suggested, I proposed a switch for having / not having a same placement bonus as the income bonus, but maybe, instead of a boolean, you can have a percent of how much the unit production should increase with the income (so, in your case, you would set it at 50, but you can set it at 0 or 100).
If the matter is not risking, due to the placement abilities being sometimes limited and forcefully integer, the placement factually increasing more than the income, in some territories, I'd go for just having both increasing by the same percentage, but the income approximating normally, while the unit placement always rounding down. Thus, if you have 25% bonus income, you would have the following placement changes:
1->1
2->2
3->3
4->5
5->6
6->7
7->8
8->10
9->11
10->12
I would still suggest just approximating both the same ways, but I think this alternative solution would be better than having the placement increasing half than the income, which I can't really see a reason for. As you can see, the above system is already pretty modest; a 25% is pretty strong bonus, if the AI plays well, and, in common maps, would just give a +1 placement from 4 to 7 and a +2 placement for 8 or more.

Tho I'm not sure I really understand, the rest of the system / concept sounds cool, but I'm personally against having a default different from no cheat. I think a game should not have AI bonuses default, unless it is clearly presented as an AI challenge. Noobs (and not only noobs!) might overlook, and you would have to wonder, in some cases, if they were using a bonus or not, if they don't have to actively choose one.

Cernel

@redrum said in AI Bonus Settings Revamp:

So if you were to say I want my AI opponents to get '+25% income' would I expect the initial resources to be increased by that as well?

Of course waiting for others, as you already know my answer, but, just to formalise: yes, especially in the basic games in which the starting PUs are the same as the starting productions and especially (but not only) if on round 1 I get a bonus to my placement abilities.

Cernel

A related note, since we are also talking about that in
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/128/resource-system-assessment-and-improvements
is that we might have collection at start turn (but I don't even know if it currently exists a map that does it, actually). In that case, not multiplying starting resources would not be a big deal (the starting resources would be what the players are supposed to have saved the theorical round before the start of the game only), but I think it would be still fine to do it, or at least I would not make exceptions.

Frostion

@redrum
Yes, please keep the AI bonus system simple and correspond as much with what players would intuitively expect when the AI is getting bonus. That is also why the current multiplilying of the bank PUs is kind of wired.

Please don’t forget my concerns about ALL resources types being multiplied by a factor and how it might not fit the map and the purpose of the special other resources. An XML option to turn on / off multiplication would be very welcome.

A % slider would be cool. And If a player was to get +20% bonus through the entire game, why would it be a problem that this also meant to any starting PUs? I would think that if a player was to be boosted during the entire game, then it might as well include the stating money.

Also, I like the idea about a general level setting that could raise a player’s chances, but I do have concerns about a placement bonus thing. If placement amount is a part of the map rules, like in Iron War where players might expect factories to only produce 5 units, or Age of Tribes and Dragon War where different factories also have fixed production stats, I would not like players to get confused by seeing some of these factories produce more than they should. I would prefer advantages / handicaps be “hidden” when playing, in the sense that players could just feel a bit more pressure from the player getting bonuses, not that the player getting bonus could also do stuff that normal players could not do.

Cernel

Ideally, the best would be a "production bonus" (like you place 6 armours at the cost for normally placing only 5, and taking only 5 placement abilities), but, since you cannot really have that working well on an integer base, then my suggestion was to indirectly obtain it by boosting the income collection and starting resources; this is also why the suggestion of scaling back income when you capture it from the AI.
Probably the best would be if the AI gets the income bonus right when spending it, but only for the income actually spent (thus, like the old system, but excluding to multiply saved income). I don't know if this would be feasible, but I'd rather suggest going that way, if it is (for example, when the AI has 24 PUs and a bonus of 25%, it will be able to spend 30 PUs using 24 PUs or spend 27-28 PUs using 22 PUs and saving 2 PUs). This would remove the need of multiplying any starting resources, as well as not worrying about capturing income, and would work the best in case you switch a player between human and AI, during the game, as the income would be just multiplied right before spending it and only if you spend it, not in the bank.

@Frostion Not sure, but I tend to agree. Likely better to apply the placement bonus only to factories following the rule of placing depending on what the territory allows (usually placement equal to territory production), not to those factories that have a fixed production per turn, regardless of the territory they are in. For example, in 270bc, the city should get the placement bonus, but not the legionaire (building 1 fort per turn regardless). This means that factories like Age of Tribes, in which you have the caves producing 1 in any, the forts producing 2 in any etc., would probably better not get any placement bonuses, as it would really make sense only if you are using them at 100% (doubling all). However, I believe this can be argued both ways; it is just a problem relative to having to round it to integer levels, while factories may be just production 1, 2 or so, so it would take some thinking at what level they get the +1, eventually (plus people may wonder if a 2.5 would be rounded up or down).

Yeah, I saw that this topic would have been not that easy to sort out.

Cernel

@Frostion said in AI Bonus Settings Revamp:

Also, I like the idea about a general level setting that could raise a player’s chances, but I do have concerns about a placement bonus thing. If placement amount is a part of the map rules, like in Iron War where players might expect factories to only produce 5 units, or Age of Tribes and Dragon War where different factories also have fixed production stats, I would not like players to get confused by seeing some of these factories produce more than they should. I would prefer advantages / handicaps be “hidden” when playing, in the sense that players could just feel a bit more pressure from the player getting bonuses, not that the player getting bonus could also do stuff that normal players could not do.

In a map where all factories always produce 5 units I guess this can be left just totally to the players if they want a +20% bonus to raise factory production to 6 or not.

redrum

So I've decided to get rid of the idea of increasing unit production for now. I think it ends up complicating things a lot as many maps have different unit production systems.

@Frostion Yeah, the plan is to move the AI bonuses to the player selection window instead of settings window. So they would be alongside the dropdowns where you select AI vs player for each nation. I do also plan for the bonus to apply to all resources by default but have the ability for mapmakers to disable bonuses for certain resources where it doesn't make sense.

Cernel

@redrum
Another idea, going a very different way, may be having a % chance of unit duplication upon placement.

Meaning that if you set it at 25%, each time the AI places 1 unit there is a 25% of another unit being added up for free (not taking placement spots, either).

Otherwise, I agree that adding (or not) placement expansion should be left for for a second time, after the system is otherwise in its final form. And, it should definitely be an optional choice if to have any bonus placement or not.

Cernel

@Cernel said in AI Bonus Settings Revamp:

@redrum
Another idea, going a very different way, may be having a % chance of unit duplication upon placement.

Meaning that if you set it at 25%, each time the AI places 1 unit there is a 25% of another unit being added up for free (not taking placement spots, either).

Nevermind about this weird idea. There is the problem that additional fighters may not have a carrier to land on, tho they could be redirected to the land territory, if they don't. But probably this is just too random a bonus; duno. Tho it could like apply to the starting setup too, besides the new placement. Probably just too strange / random a bonus tho, on a second thought (maybe noone would like such a thing).

redrum

Next set of changes are submitted: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/1791

Highlights:

Bonus income now works for all resources
Starting resources are increased by bonus as well
Updated wording of bonus in history and end turn report
Adjust bonus income range to only be positive (0-999)

Hepps

@redrum Well done sir. That was a very quick turn around. Very impressed.

redrum

@Hepps Thanks. Any feedback is appreciated.

My next steps are to move the AI bonus properties to the player selection screen and then add XML parameters for maps to customize which players bonuses are available for, which resources are influenced, and set recommended bonus levels.