Edit mode, tool or gamefeature
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Lets talk about edit mode for a moment, since im around for quite a bit of time i have seen a huge increase of edit mode usage. even to a point where it is considdered to be a natural gamefeature. not needing to be discussed or asked about. Even moderators of AAA do it so i think its time to discuss it.
I dont agree with this gamefeature, for me edit mode is a tool to fix bugs, and every now and then an obvious oversight fix, but only if agreed upon by the opponent.
I see more and more people use edit mode as if its part of the game, a gamefeature. yust click edit mode change some units from nations that where active 3 turns back end move on, no discussion nessesary. I think this is a very wrong approach to this game and can even lead to (unintentional) cheating. And its also unfair to people who do not use edit mode so actively for whatever reason.
Im not saying this is how people intent to abuse edit mode but it can be a result of it:
1st Reason for unfair usage of edit mode is "Time of Realisation" or TOR. what i mean by this is that for example nation A is finished and nation B spotted a mistake or oversight, imediatly moves units to attack this mistake. Here the TOR is very short maybe even a fraction, certnely no time to ask for an edit before the move has exposed it. And in the same example nation B has 30 minutes or more TOR because there are 5 nations in between before nation A can take advantage of this mistake. therefor nation B has a huge edit advantage
2nd Reason how do you rate the importance of an edit. some edits mean you forgot to move 5 transports to a position, wich is a big setback and another is forgetting 1 infantry blocker to defend ur capital. missing 5 transports is a much bigger edit then 1 infantry, but usualy a no problem edit. the infantry blocker however small is likely to be refused or questioned.
3th edeting without discussion or questioning can and will lead to unitentional cheating. edit mode doesnt take into account range of units. movements made in earlyers steps or number of placable units in a factory. If a player is afk and the opponent uses edit mode every 5 minutes its very hard to see if everything was done legaly...
using edit mode so much WILL lead to these examples of cheating.
4th the player who agrees with some or all of my points will always get the short end of the stick.
Often if i try to discuss these concerns the reaction is that its normal and otherwise a gameturn will take much longer. I personaly think that a long gameturn leads to better games. but i suppose if you want to play fast you could check before start if huge nubers of edits are allouwed or not. now its often the other way around.
feel free to discuss or question.
ice
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It's an interesting question. There are scenarios which use Edit mode to model rules that otherwise wouldn't work within tripleA, and in that case I think it definitely would be a game feature, but I gather you mean for like World War II type games, or scenarios where the rules are set and the everything can be modelled sans edits.
For something like goofs, forgotten non coms, purchasing decisions etc, I'd think a casual use of the edit mode is fine, but then there are questions like where to draw the line on that for the real deal. Using edit mode like a time machine for the purchase phase say, or for the non-com phase, provided they're caught before the next phase/turn begins in earnest. Or like the "oh shit" button, when a mistake can be corrected, only if quickly and without messing anything else up. But that's a judgment call right? Hardline would be like, "well, once you take your hand off the piece" or hit the timer 'end phase', then that's that. But I don't know, some people are more cutthroat than others. If at the home table, you can find a quick solution that prevents one person from feeling sour grapes after spending like 6 hours at the game, then you might allow it. Like if it makes for a better night ya know. Other times people just want to win and get the stripes, without having to also play arbiter of what they're going to let slide for the opponent in terms of mistakes or redos. Forgetting to move some random AA gun as a blocker or something. I mean at some point that all adds up. Might be the thing that seals the deal. Peeps asking once, you say 'OK, friendly game.' But if the same thing starts happening half a dozen times per game, and I imagine it could get exhausting lol. Like then it's just not even an ask anymore. Too casual at that point I'd say, sorta straining the friendliness of the friendly game right hehe.
The edit mode itself is a pretty powerful tool though, especially as a means for tweaked settings, like adding techs and the like or alt rules. Unlike other versions, here we can alter the game state at any point, which is a big advantage for casual play and closer to the home table. For competitive play it probably works at cross purposes to the idea of the computer being the ultimate tournament judge, with the final shot call and strictly enforcing the phases and order of play. I think there's probably room for stuff like edit etiquette or different strokes for different folks, depending on if it's like war club style or just a pick up thing. I can see wanting to have some sort of forms and norms for it, since not all edits are alike, as you say, and the TOR thing is also big part of the general gameplay, like the stamina/endurance factor especially. Worth discussing for sure I'd say.
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Of course it is up to the players to agree under what circumstances it will be allowed to be used, and of course "etiquette" demands that edits will be pointed out to the opponent.
However, every edit done when using "Edit Mode" will be documented in the game history. So I don't see how cheating might be possible.
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yes this etiquette is what we need, but in the past this was allouwing an edit here and there wich ofcource is fine. no need to destroy a 6 hour game because of a silly thing.
but nowadays this etiquette is use edit mode freely without question. and the user is the judge, this is my problem
i have seen illigal moves due to edit mode, and in bigmaps with lots of units it can be hard to spot wich unit came from where and moved when, especially when edit mode is used as a gamefeature meaning maybe 3 times in 5 minutes in some cases. i come back from toilet and have to check every single move is not entirly foolproof imo.
hopefully more people get my point and see this culture problem
I do think a solution could be that atleast the regulars and especially the mods could agree on a new etiquette and try to enforce this as much as possible even if it means loosing some units in a close battle because hey, you made a mistake!
ice
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@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:
but nowadays this etiquette is use edit mode freely without question. and the user is the judge, this is my problem
Are you addressing specifically lobby games?
I am just asking, as in Play by Forum games I cannot reproduce that.
On this forum here PbF is pointless. But on A&A .org a large community is playing exclusively PbF games . And over there Edit Mode in general is used either on the basis of a general agreement before the game starts or in cases people forgot about an agreement before Edit Mode is based on an agreement during the game.I don't like playing TripleA via the Lobby personally so I cannot tell to what extent Edit Mode is abused there. But reading your text it appears to be problematic specifically in lobby games.
However in tournament games the rules usually are fixed. And a player can address the tournament director / judge in case the rules are broken.
For casual games the etiquette is what the players agree on. And who violates the rules breaking core game rules looses, IMHO. You don't need a moderator for this simple rule.
(Are there moderators monitoring games as sort of judges?)
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@panther yes lobby games,
and about the mods, my suggestion is simpel that they could lead in example by trying to disencourage this edit culture
no they arent judging this and defenatly shouldnt
in the end it comes down to this agreement, but yeah i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures wich in my oppinion is world upside down
:))
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@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:
and about the mods, my suggestion is simpel that they could lead in example by trying to disencourage this edit culture
But how would they come to know about the abuse of edits - when they are not participating in a game?
@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:
but yeah i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures wich in my oppinion is world upside down
I don't agree here. It is common use in every game between two or more people that they agree on rules and to which degree "manual intervention" might be acceptable or not.
Cheating IMHO is independent from that. In case someone betrays leave him alone.If someone cheated this would not be prevented by any "written etiquette". Cheating is a behaviour that doesn't care about rules, etiquettes, laws, whatever...
Anyway: Good discussion!
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yeah currently some moderators are the people who are abusing edit mode and are unaware of any faults by doing so, hence i hope i can get atleast 1 lobby mod into this discussion
about the cheating, im not saying this is intentional, im pretty sure those are accidents but easaly made by overuse of edit mode
ice
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At everyone, I am the opponent of Ice in this issue. We were playing Domination 1914 NML which is a large, complex map, with a lot of moving pieces. We had also previously allowed numerous edits over the course of play and Ice never once complained about edits until towards the end.
So for him to raise these issues in this manner without first clearly articulating and discussing with me is not the best way to resolve any such raised concerns in my opinion.
I address his comments from above, as well as comments he made to me directly in game chat, below.
There are numerous issues with what you raised.
Using Edit Mode Generally:
You have expressed that edit mode it is not a "game feature", "allowed by rules", and generally "cheating" if used. I told you that I disagree but you insist it is a form of cheating.
It is rude to imply someone is cheating as there is a difference between making an edit reflecting something that was a legitimate move that could have been performed had the player not forgotten on their turn versus an edit of the nature of moving something 5 places instead of 2 because you want an advantage.
I believe that if someone, on their same turn (e.g. still making moves for one of their nations), forgets to move an infantry or something of that nature and its the placement phase of the game where they can't do non-combat, I see no problem with using edit mode to make moves they already could have made. This should be true too if you have two back to back nations (UK->Russia game order) and you realize in Russia you forgot to move a UK unit, edit should be no problem.
Again, You said you disagree and viewed that as cheating and abusing edit mode. We'll have to agree to disagree as regardless how often that type of edit is used, it is not changing the outcome of anything the opponent could have done/reacted to and should be allowed.
You have also expressed concern between the time a player has to react to something they missed (e.g., I didn't realize I needed to block or move differently please let me do something differently to compensate before you make any moves). To the extent that could be caught, I believe in friendly games it should be allowed.
You also mention the time to realize a mistake affects things, and while true, it still does not hurt to ask for an edit and see what the opponent says. This will be addressed below.The final point in this section is if you choose not to edit because of some internal moral code, that is your choice but does not reflect on your opponent.
Our Game:
However, in our game, any edits performed reflected legitimate moves I could have made but forgot to make and when edited, they were done in the same game turn of the nation being edited except in rare cases where (1) It was moving UK in Russia where Russia comes directly after; and (2) if it was after the nation moved, I specifically asked you for that edit and told you what was being edited.
Also in our game, you made the comment that it is not fair to use Edit mode because once Germany makes moves and France responds to those moves, its too late for an edit to take place. You have to realize that this is true for any nation. However, the specific context in our game is as follows:
You failed to notice UK (from the previous round) obtained merchant marine tech and moved German boats without realizing that. France then moved to attack German boats to soften up for UK boats to hit. After the combat you made a statement that you didn't realize that tech was obtained.
-First, that tech was obtained 4 nations prior (including UK) so you actually DID have time to pay attention and notice.
-Second, that was a mistake easily avoidable by checking the chart that shows what nation has what tech.
-Third, IF you said something about it AND actually ASKED for an edit, I would have allowed it.Finally, there are many moves I did NOT ask for edits for, that were very game changing. For example, you took south Africa and Australia factories from UK when all I needed to prevent that was build ONE infantry there and I never asked for such edits. There were also many moves I intended to do, but forgot and never asked for edits.
You are picking and choosing things to complain about without giving or accepting the full context of what took place. If edits bother you that much, discuss with your opponent at start of game. Also, communicate with your opponent your concerns as they come up rather than create a post about it without their knowledge.
In any event, I don't think it is right to allow edits, in a game, then complain about them halfway through the game and say your opponent is cheating by using them, then complain on forums about it without first clearly discussing what is bothering you and why with your opponent.
I hope we can continue our save but if not, I understand. Wish you the best, cheers.
Final point:
Once edits are allowed and to the extent any edits made reflect legitimate moves that could have been made on your own turn, there is no right to complain about THOSE edits. Making such edits is not the same as cheating. -
In his post, ice raises a valid point. Edits which result in cheating could happen, and have happened in some of my games. But, I have not seen mortetvie engage in any "cheating type" edits.
In chess tournaments, there is a rule that if you touch a piece, you must then move that piece. With TripleA, how close should we be to that "touch a piece" mindset? Opinions on that vary.
Is the "touch a piece" mindset more moral than a casual approach to edits?
I personally believe that if something makes the world a worse place, it is immoral. Stealing, for example, is immoral, because the world would be worse off if everyone stole, than it would be if no one stole.
My own personal view is that edits do not violate any moral principle, so long as they are not "cheating type" edits. This means that a) the player must see the mistake himself, rather than have it be revealed by an opponent's move, b) edits should not be used to undo bad die rolling, and c) die rolling should always be resolved against the person requesting an edit.
If edits are disallowed, players must put more effort in each turn, to minimize the need to correct after-the-fact mistakes. That means slower turns. For me personally, that would mean less enjoyment per hour played. Life is short, and every minute is sacred.
But that's just how I see things; and I respect the fact that there are those who will see things differently.
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@mortetvie wel this is way out of line, if you look back you can see that this post is prior to our game incident , and never did i took our game as an example.
i had multiple bad experiences with different people about edit mode and our game made me take this concern here.
your points are redicules and nowhere near the truth, it yust proves my point on how you legalise an illigal feature.
i wasnt making a fight, your turning it into it.
its fine with me if this is the moderators vieuw on the matter, ill indeed have to be very careful on who to play in the future
good luck
ice
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Nothing I said was untrue but I welcome you to demonstrate any untruth with a specific example or evidence. To the extent I am incorrect, I will acknowledge that.
Also, I was not aware of, nor did you ever tell me about this post until after you already complained to me. So that is true and that comment is not intended to offend you. I was not aware of this post until I logged in this afternoon and I am not trying to pick a fight with you, but you have actually been attacking me from the start.
Ultimately, the problem is highlighted by your comment "how you legalise an illigal feature." It is your opinion that it is an illegal feature and your opinion is what is causing the conflict.
You have to understand that this game is a digital representation of a board game that used to be played in person. There is the need to digitally accomplish situations like "I forgot to move X units from Y territory" which would be done physically and understood and allowed during in person games without issue.
Using the edit feature is the digital way to accomplish making legitimate moves that the digital game engine does not otherwise allow for various reasons (e.g., moving an infantry unit in placement phase).
I am sorry you had a bad experience in the past, or even in our game. However, you need to understand that using the edit mode to make moves you could otherwise have made but forgot to make is not cheating.
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@ice1 said in Edit mode, tool or gamefeature:
its fine with me if this is the moderators vieuw on the matter, ill indeed have to be very careful on who to play in the future
It is often the case that moderators' opinions vary, depending on the moderator. If the admins and lobby rules are silent on a particular subject, each mod is free to use his own best judgement. You might play some other mod, and find that he's as opposed to edits as you appear to be. This is a "personal preference" thing, not a TripleA rules thing.
To avoid friction in the future, before starting a game you might want to discuss the circumstances under which edits will or won't be allowed. If both of you have the same expectations about edits going into a game, and if those expectations are met, it's unlikely much edit-based dissatisfaction will arise. I'm saying this not in my role as a moderator, but in my role as a fellow TripleA player. Anything which reduces interpersonal disagreements, so that we can focus on the game, is a good thing.
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@kurtgodel7
i agree with allot here, unfortunatly i have no further interest in this discussiona mod is being extreemly disrespectful to me and has his facts upsidedown. never ever did i call him a cheater or anyone else for that matter. i gues reading is difficult.
and again this post was not about him its about the edit culture. and sure he can have a different oppinion but this is yust a very hostile way to make a point.our incident wasnt even on this matter, it was about my edit on a gamefeature wich he already appologised for, so imo was done no idea whats up now
ill yust let any furter attack from him be as im sure he will make up more stuff and i have no interest in that
ice
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Wish you all the best, but you did say many times in different ways that Edit is an "illegal game feature" and in our game, you said it was cheating. On this forum alone you said:
" i have to ask before a game starts that my opponent wont use illigal gamefeatures"
and
"it yust proves my point on how you legalise an illigal feature."
Saying someone is using an "illegal game feature" is the same as saying they are chearing. The fact is, you are wrong in maintaining that the edit feature is an illegal one.
You also did reference me and our game when you said:
"yeah currently some moderators are the people who are abusing edit mode and are unaware of any faults by doing so, hence i hope i can get atleast 1 lobby mod into this discussion
"Again, wish you all the best but please be honest about what you were doing in this forum post.
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@mortetvie where are the written rules about edit mode being a gamefeature, why is this a fact? can i read them? would very much like to read the official edit rule!
what are the rules of tripple a games? as long as im around the rulebooks of axis and allies from larry harris, so for v1 use the classic rulebooks, for v2 revised etc
edit mode is a houserule, and in my 1000's of games this was a rare feature, ofcource it is used but only every now and then. and most importandly asked before used
why cant i question this change in volume of edits by diffetent people in the lobby including modsss
im not sure why you are so offended. i think you saw a word you didnt like and reacted to that, you saw cheat but didnt see the whole sentence, unintentional cheating. im not sure if i should have used a different word for that. english isnt my native language so for that im deeply sorry
none of ur points are vallid, and you see ghosts
ice
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For the sake of argument, where in the written rules is the "save" function listed as a game feature? Since it is not discussed in the rules, if you have to save the game, do you lose and is that an "illegal game function?"
By your logic, use of game tools to accomplish legitimate purposes is not allowed. If you think using edit feature to move units you forgot during your turn is illegal, I am sorry, but that is not reasonable in my opinion.
