Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts

Cernel

@wc_sumpton said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

@Cernel

For arguments sake, let's say that adding AA fire to the SBR is not that hard. What happens to them after the battle? Can they still participate in first round against attacking air? I did this already with a game option "Use Non-Air SBR Units In Normal Battle".

Cheers...

However, I defer to @Panther for any actual answers about what happens when a territory is both raided and attacked normally with air units during the same turn. This happens very rarely in practice.

Panther

@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

@Panther Do you know which one existed before the other one between the V3 rules for escorts and interceptors and the first Global game having air battles before bombing raids? I'm guessing V3, but I'm not talking about V3 itself (because this rule is not OoB, so it came later than V3 itself).

The optional rule of "Fighter Escorts and Interceptors" (as well as "Dardanelles Closed") in v3 had been officially introduced by the official FAQ sheet issued on March 20, 2009. So that was a bit before the games (first editions) of Europe 1940 (2010) and Pacific 1940 (Autumn 2009) were published.

I will comment on rules related questions later, if needed.

Panther

@wc_sumpton
@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

However, I defer to @Panther for any actual answers about what happens when a territory is both raided and attacked normally with air units during the same turn. This happens very rarely in practice.

From the Rulebook:

Fighters participating as either escorts or interceptors cannot participate in other battles during that turn, including a battle in the territory in which the strategic bombing raid is occurring.
...
Defending interceptors must land in their original territory after the combat. If that territory is captured, they may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attacker’s Noncombat Move phase begins. If no such landing space is available, the fighters are lost.

Cernel

@panther To clarify, the scenario which I assume that @wc_sumpton assumed is one or more bombers bombing raiding a territory and zero or more fighers escorting the bombers while one or more OTHER air units make battle in the same territory.

Cernel

@wc_sumpton said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

@Cernel

For arguments sake, let's say that adding AA fire to the SBR is not that hard. What happens to them after the battle? Can they still participate in first round against attacking air? I did this already with a game option "Use Non-Air SBR Units In Normal Battle".

Cheers...

I assumed that, when you said "Can they still participate in first round against attacking air?", you meant "Can the AA guns which AA fired during the SBR still participate in first round against attacking air?". However, now that I read the "Use Non-Air SBR Units In Normal Battle" option, that sounds like something which makes units make SBR and then also normal battle in the same zone and turn-phase, so can you clarify what you were asking?

Is "Use Non-Air SBR Units In Normal Battle" a property which is already available for game-making under the latest pre-release? I've searched for it in PoS2 and found nothing.

wc_sumpton

@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

I've searched for it in PoS2 and found nothing.

I think that we have had this discussion about PoS2 before. There are updates not documented, even as far back as 2.5. There have been changes that render errors in the document.

My advice, test, test, test. Do not put your trust in the PoS2.

Cheers...

Panther

@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

To clarify, the scenario which I assume that @wc_sumpton assumed is one or more bombers bombing raiding a territory and zero or more fighers escorting the bombers while one or more OTHER air units make battle in the same territory.

By the rulebook AA fire is resolved once - before the first round of combat.

The sequence is as follows:

During Combat Move Phase the attacker assigns his planes (bombers/escorts) to the strategic bombing raid. Also he assigns his (different) planes to the territorial attack.

At the end of the Combat Move Phase - before the Conduct Combat Phase starts - the defender decides which planes act as interceptors (the rest act as defending units in the territorial battle).

Now - before the first round of combat starts - the AA guns fire.

They fire

one shot against every bomber intended for strategic bombing,
one shot against every escort fighter
one shot against every bomber attacking the territory
one shot against every fighter attacking the territory

After the AA fire is resolved the ~~first round of combat~~ air battle starts with

the fight of escorts against interceptors
remaining bombers bombing the facilty

followed by the regular territorial battle (inluding its dedicated air units, excluding units that were dedicated to strategic bombing/escorts/interceptors).

The defender lands his surviving interceptors after all of the attacker’s combats
have been resolved and before the attacker’s Noncombat Move phase begins.

I am not sure what the question was / what actually needed clarification. So i hope that my answer contains the information needed.

Cernel

@panther That is clear for the case in which that is the only territory subjected to bombing raiding in the turn. However, let's take the case in which you make a bombing raid and also a battle in a territory A and make a bombing raid and also a battle in a territory B.

My understanding is that, in this case, you first resolve all AA-fire in either A or B (your choice), then resolve the bombing raid (possibly immediately preceded by an air battle) in the same territory, then resolve all AA-fire in the other territory, then resolve the bombing raid (possibly immediately preceded by an air battle) in the other territory, then resolve the normal battle in either A or B (your choice regardless of what previously chosen), then resolve the normal battle in the other territory. Am I right?

For example, assuming that you choose to do A before B for raiding and B before A for normal battle, this would be the sequence.

Resolve all AA-fire in A.
Resolve the bombing raid in A (immediately preceeded by an air battle if there are any interceptors).
Resolve all AA-fire in B.
Resolve the bombing raid in B (immediately preceeded by an air battle if there are any interceptors).
Resolve the normal battle in B.
Resolve the normal battle in A.

Are you sure that this is how it works?

Actually, I was more inclined to imagine that, in the case of a single territory being both raided and attacked normally and no other zones being raided and-or attacked, you would rather go by the following sequence.

Resolve the AA-fire against raiders (bombers) and escorts (fighters).
Resolve the bombing raid (immediately preceeded by an air battle if there are any interceptors).
Resolve the AA-fire against any other attacking aircraft.
Resolve the normal battle.

I understand instead that you are sure that point 3 happens at the same time as point 1. This being the case is not so clear to me from the rules, but I guess I'm overlooking something.

Panther

@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

I understand instead that you are sure that point 3 happens at the same time as point 1. This being the case is not so clear to me from the rules, but I guess I'm overlooking something.

No you are not overlooking anything. The reason is simply that the rulebook doesn't indicate the procedure clearly. This is what we have from the rulebook:

In the Conduct Combat Phase there are three steps:

Strategic Bombing Raids (including Escorts and Interceptors in case the optional rule is active)
"During this step, you may bomb the enemy’s industrial complexes with your
bombers. A strategic bombing raid is an economic attack.
...
After resolving any antiaircraft fire (see Unit Profiles: Antiaircraft Guns, pg. 25),
surviving bombers each roll one die (or two dice, selecting the best result, for
heavy bombers).
..."
Amphibious Assaults
"During this step you will resolve each amphibious assault you announced during
the Combat Move phase. ..."
General Combat
"In this step, you resolve combat in each space that contains your units and either contains enemy units or is enemy-controlled. ..."
The sequence list of the "General Combat" does not include AA-fire.

Instead AA-fire is defined in the "Unit Characteristics" where it says:

"An antiaircraft gun may only fire at an air unit when that unit attacks the territory containing that antiaircraft gun. Antiaircraft guns fire only before the first round of combat and are then returned to the game board. Roll one die for each air unit doing so (if there is more than one antiaircraft gun in a territory, only one can fire, even if the others are controlled by different powers). On a roll of 1, that air unit is destroyed and immediately removed from the
game. If all the aircraft are the same, fighters or bombers, there is no need to differentiate them. However, if there is a mix of fighters and bombers, you must assign specific dice rolls to specific aircraft by indicating which aircraft is being rolled for and rolling the die. A roll of 1 destroys the specified aircraft. This special attack is made immediately before normal combat occurs in the territory containing the antiaircraft gun."

Additionally the optional rule simply states:
"After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if any of them remain and there are also any interceptors, an air battle occurs between these units."

So if TripleA acted strictly by the rules it would have to

first: resolve every strategic bombing raid in every affected territory (including or not the optional rule), then
second: resolve every amphibious assault scenario, then
third: resolve evey remaining "regular (General Combat) battle" (this includes battles in territories having been under strategical attack before)

Concerning AA-fire during the Strategic Bombing Raid step the rules refer to the unit characteristics where it says "An antiaircraft gun may only fire at an air unit when that unit attacks the territory containing that antiaircraft gun."

The attack of the facility/territory takes place simultaneously.

It seems that the unit characteristics do not explicitly reflect the AA-fire caused by strategic bombing raids. This might be an oversight leaving room for two interpretations:

a) shoot once against all different groups of attackers
b) shoot twice - once during Strategic Bombing Raid step, once immediately before the General Combat step (- against the relevant groups of attackers respectively).

The result of both for gameplay and consequences are identical. So for TripleA it should be chosen what appears to be more practicable to the current workflow.

Cernel

@panther said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

It seems that the unit characteristics do not explicitly reflect the AA-fire caused by strategic bombing raids. This might be an oversight leaving room for two interpretations:

a) shoot once against all different groups of attackers
b) shoot twice - once during Strategic Bombing Raid step, once immediately before the General Combat step (- against the relevant groups of attackers respectively).

The result of both for gameplay and consequences are identical. So for TripleA it should be chosen what appears to be more practicable to the current workflow.

Right. I definitely believe "b" is the proper way to go especially on the account that, when you have multiple territories in which you are both raiding and attacking (I know, very rare, but TripleA can have games in which it is not rare, and land units can raid too.), you must first do all the raids and then all the normal combats, which implies that at least one territory will have the raid combat and the normal combat separated by the combat in one or more other territories, so it really makes little or no sense to roll for relevant AA fire and remove the casualties before an other combat in an other territory happening in between of this AA fire and the normal combat for which the AA fire has been resolved.

Add to that that you may have a territory in which you raid and also sea-borne attack from a hostile zone. In this case, the sea battle must be made in between of the raid and the normal combat in the territory, so (again) it would make little or no sense to roll for the AA fire of the normal combat before the sea battle.

Moreover, for TripleA in general, AA fire can be before any round of combat (not necessarily only the first one), so this definitely means that (at least for custom maps having infinite or 2 or more for the number of rounds of AA fire of some unit) it definitely needs to be immediately before the actual normal battle, never having other battles in other territories or even in the same territory in between.

Summing up, under this concept, assuming the case in which you make a bombing raid and also a battle in a territory A and make a bombing raid and also a battle in a territory B (and neither has sea-borne units from a hostile sea zone) and you choose to do A before B for raiding and B before A for normal battle, this would be the sequence.

Resolve the AA-fire against raiders (bombers) and escorts (fighters) in A.
Resolve the bombing raid in A (immediately preceded by an air battle if there are any interceptors).
Resolve the AA-fire against raiders (bombers) and escorts (fighters) in B.
Resolve the bombing raid in B (immediately preceded by an air battle if there are any interceptors).
Resolve the AA-fire against any other attacking aircraft in B.
Resolve the normal battle in B.
Resolve the AA-fire against any other attacking aircraft in A.
Resolve the normal battle in A.

Do you concur with the correctness of this sequence under the aforementioned assumptions?

Are there any developers which may be interested in doing this stuff and can merge? I think we have clarified pretty much everything already and just need to test the behaviour of the program (I already have a good idea of what's wrong.) and make a list of things which need to be changed in the program (I can do that.) and thereafter in the game files (XML) (I'll do it for my three mods of V3). Maybe @frigoref (who got write access recently)?

Cernel

@cernel However, if the release is happening soon (?), maybe better holding off and doing this after the release?

frigoref

@cernel I'd prefer a clear test case that we can write unit tests before starting this. Otherwise I agree that it would probably best to wait until the release is done and stable.

Cernel

@frigoref said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

@cernel I'd prefer a clear test case that we can write unit tests before starting this.

I don't know what that is. If you mean a game-save where things are not working right, I'm positive here we have all a series of things which are not going as they should (so I don't think that game-saves would be that helpful at least initially) and anyway the feature offered currently in V3 is basically just the Global one, so we don't really have a thing which is not working as intended (beside the fact that it is, but this is mostly an other story).

Even though this is a problem, I would say it is more like a feature request for development. I considered it a problem because this is a feature that looks like it is present already for V3 as it should (whereas it is just the Global one).

Panther

@cernel said in Option for Anniversary rules for escorts and intercepts:

...
Do you concur with the correctness of this sequence under the aforementioned assumptions?

Yes, that looks good!

wc_sumpton

@Cernel

I think @frigoref is asking for testing mechanics used within the engine for making these changes. As for changes, there is only one air battle mechanic and is used for "Battles May Be Preceeded By Air Battles" and "Raids May Be Preceeded By Air Battles". If the latter is true, there would need to be another option to switch AA fire to the beginning of the air battle instead of the SBR battle. These units should be allowed to battle until "Air Battle Rounds" or maxRoundsAA or a normal battle conclusion and can be taken as casualties if isInfrastructure is false.

Program wise I don't any other changes would need to be made.

Cheers...