AA revised - possible upgrades
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Sorry to bump an old thread but I came here from the Feature Request list and felt the need to correct point 2. In fact, this is correct the way that it is, to change it back would be a bug.
Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn." -
@simon33 the term "or" seems somewhat ambiguous to me i would assume you'd have to move in order to "participate in combat" but as far as i know that has always been the rule you can move in CM or NCM but not both except for air units completing their moves.
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Seems clear to me. If they have done either they can't move in NCM.
Although it isn't true that they have to move to conduct combat. Units can be placed in hostile sea zones and then the enemy needs to move if they want to avoid combat. And vice versa. Also submarines can submerge which leaves the sea zone hostile to both sides if that side loses the battle.
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@simon33 said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
Seems clear to me. If they have done either they can't move in NCM.
@ubernaut is right: this phrase is logically wrong, or at least open to multiple interpretations, if the meaning is what you said (and you are correct it is).
Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn."That is the exactly same thing as saying:
Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or did not participate
in combat during your turn."If you say "you can move any of this that didn't do this or that", what you logically mean is that the requisite for moving is that you didn't make at least one of those two things, as I believe the normal meaning of the English "or" is the same as the ancient Latin "vel".
So, logically, what that phrase means is that you cannot move during non combat move only if you both moved and participated in combat, while you can move if you did only one of those two things, or neither.
How that rule should have been written, as I understand English, is either:
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase nor participate
in combat during your turn."or
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase and didn't participate
in combat during your turn."Anyways @ubernaut this is the itended meaning of that (I agree badly worded) rule.
Of course, all air units are exception to this rule and cargo that was already loaded at start turn doesn't count as having moved as long as it didn't offload or attempted to, even if the transport itself moved or offloaded (and, only in Revised OOB, offloading during CM doesn't bar from doing it during NCM too, but only restricts you to the same territory).
Additionally, Revised has also the special rule that ships that took part in a victorious sea battle can either offload or load, during NCM, but not both (so such a cargo may be loaded during CM and offloaded during NCM).
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I guess it's not grammatically perfect but I don't find it confusing. Context clarifies sufficiently for me.
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@ubernaut In all Classics and Reviseds, you can move your transports in CM if you are sending them into a sea zone with enemy units. And, of course, from Revised you can move them also to get away from such a sea zone.
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@ubernaut In Revised-OOB this is "special" about transports (compared to later editions):
- Transports cost 8 IPCs and defend on a 1.
- Transports may be chosen as casualties at any time.
- Transports fight like any other unit, though they have no attack value.
- The presence of enemy transports alone makes a sea zone hostile.
- Transports cannot load or unload in a sea zone containing only unsubmerged enemy subs and/or transports.
- Transports can load after combat if they don’t unload.
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
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@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
@ubernaut In Revised-OOB this is "special" about transports (compared to later editions):
- Transports cost 8 IPCs and defend on a 1.
- Transports may be chosen as casualties at any time.
- Transports fight like any other unit, though they have no attack value.
- The presence of enemy transports alone makes a sea zone hostile.
- Transports cannot load or unload in a sea zone containing only unsubmerged enemy subs and/or transports.
- Transports can load after combat if they don’t unload.
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
I suggest you clarify that is ignoring all the implications of using National Advantages (not much of a need, since TripleA doesn't support this option).
I believe you missed two points, that are actually quite closely related with one another. As I said, the other things that Revised OOB transports can do are:
- Transports can load units if they are going to take part in a battle, with no requirement to offload them on the same phase (not in Revised LHTR).
- Transports can (non combat) offload after a victorious battle, no matter if the cargo was loaded on that same turn or already on board (not in Revised LHTR).
This is also particularly relevant with respect to what you can do in the case of the transports starting in a hostile sea zone (previous enemy placement), as, if you want to use such transports to move units between two friendly territories, in Revised OOB you can move the transports to an adjacent friendly sea zone during Combat Move, load the transports during Combat Move, go back to the previous sea zone during Combat Move (or to any hostile sea zones), make battle with those transports (keeping all cargo on board), then offload whatever you have in them, during Non Combat Move (into any adjacent friendly territories, comprising newly conquered ones).
On the other hand, I believe that, for example, in v3+, if you start the turn with 1 battleship and 1 transport is a sea zone with 1 enemy destroyer in it, there is no way that transport can be used to ship units between two friendly territories, on that same turn (as it can only load units for sea borne offensives). @Panther can you confirm this?
Sadly, TripleA handles transport cases very badly, as currently the behaviour (in terms of what the program allows you to do, sometimes allowing you doing things you cannot do, some other times disallowing you doing things you can do) is largely the same across all rulesets, and it is practically a randomish mash-up of the v2 and v3 rulesets, but mostly v2, and, in particular, having absolutely no support of the differences between Classic, Revised OOB and Revised LHTR, about what you can do with transports (there are a few of them, some quite important, but none part of TripleA, unless that happens to be the default for the program as a whole, as far as I know).
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@simon33 said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
Sorry to bump an old thread but I came here from the Feature Request list and felt the need to correct point 2. In fact, this is correct the way that it is, to change it back would be a bug.
Rule, p21, under "Phase 5, Noncombat move":
"In this phase, you can move any of
your units that did not move in the
combat move phase or participate
in combat during your turn."To be clear, while I think the wording is not clear enough on its own, the matter has been abundantly clarified; so, of course, that is right.
@LouisXIVXIV, your points 1 and 2 are actually bug reports, rather than feature requests, and I believe the first one is correct and the second one is wrong.
- Bombardment should not be able to target air units by the original rules, but it can in game.
- Transports should be able to move in combat phase and move again in noncombat if they have not unloaded and they have movement left, but they cannot.
So, feel free to open a bug report about the first one in the bug tracker, as per:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/category/58/bug-reportsAlso I suggest to clarify if you are referring only to Revised OOB or to Revised as a whole (that in TripleA means whether you are referring to all games of the Revised map or only to the Revised game), since Revised can be either OOB and LHTR (though TripleA calls OOB as just Revised, on a game level (but not on a map level)). For example, your point 1 would be wrong for Revised LHTR, as LHTR adds air units to the eligible casualties of Naval Bombard (it can have some importance if you would rather take a bomber out).
On the other hand, the second point may be reworded as a feature request, adding to Revised a custom (house rule like) setting for being able to split transport movement between Combat and Non Combat Move, so to allow using a transport starting in a hostile sea zone to ship units between friendly territories without having to send it into any naval battles, to do so (am I right guessing this is your user case?).
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@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
I suggest you clarify that is ignoring all the implications of using National Advantages (not much of a need, since TripleA doesn't support this option).
Indeed!
@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
I believe you missed two points, that are actually quite closely related with one another. ...
My list was what I was quickly able to collect. Every additional item is welcome of course.
@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
On the other hand, I believe that, for example, in v3+, if you start the turn with 1 battleship and 1 transport is a sea zone with 1 enemy destroyer in it, there is no way that transport can be used to ship units between two friendly territories, on that same turn (as it can only load units for sea borne offensives). @Panther can you confirm this?
Yes, confirmed, as the "Sea Units Starting in Hostile Sea Zones"-rules apply. And once these sea units have moved and/or participated in combat, they cannot move or participate in the Noncombat Move phase of the turn.
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@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
On this regard, I'm actually not sure if a move like this would be allowed: starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 infantries into it, sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 infantry into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then offloading the other 1 infantry, into the same territory, during Non Combat Move.
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@Cernel perhaps 2 is not accurate, I'm not entirely sure.
If the transport does NOT begin in a hostile zone and does NOT participate in combat then I suspect it never sees a benefit from moving in combat and again in noncombat, so it's just a matter of convenience in that case (and that was the line I was thinking on. I was coming here from GTO and noticed some of their features were absent.) That's the vast majority of cases where this would arise.
However, the case where the transport begins its move in a hostile zone is interesting and the rule details are important in that case. If the transport was moving away from the zone it could do its action in combat move, suffering only the incomplete information of unresolved combat.
The even more interesting scenario is if the transport would like to return to the zone after the enemy is cleared. Perhaps with cargo, perhaps without. This is a situation that will arise in real games and the resolution here would have real consequences on the game, so adjudicating this is important.
I haven't scoured the rule-book about it, but it seems like Simon33 might be right from the paragraph quoted, as you also say.
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@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
On this regard, I'm actually not sure if a move like this would be allowed: starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 infantries into it, sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 infantry into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then offloading the other 1 infantry, into the same territory, during Non Combat Move.
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I am just not sure how this is relevant?
Presumably if you are taking a territory... you either unload both units from a single transport... or you unload neither. I cannot fathom a situation where you had 2 combat units on a single transport and chose to unload only one, then unloaded the other during NCM into the same territory you just captured. It makes no sense. Seems as though the entire thing is a moot point.
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Perhaps if you thought that one unit couldn't withstand a counter attack but two could and wanted to see the defensive dice?
Anyway, the plausibility of the scenario is kinda irrelevant. Are you really allowed to load units in combat movement, offload only one of them, then offload the other in NCM? Is there a restriction that it has to be to the same territory or is the rule about transports having to offload to the same territory not in revised?
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@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
On this regard, I'm actually not sure if a move like this would be allowed: starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 infantries into it, sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 infantry into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then offloading the other 1 infantry, into the same territory, during Non Combat Move.
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No. As Krieghund confirmed here:
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/32322/offloading-in-both-combat-and-non-combat-movement -
@simon33 said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
Perhaps if you thought that one unit couldn't withstand a counter attack but two could and wanted to see the defensive dice?
Anyway, the plausibility of the scenario is kinda irrelevant. Are you really allowed to load units in combat movement, offload only one of them, then offload the other in NCM? Is there a restriction that it has to be to the same territory or is the rule about transports having to offload to the same territory not in revised?
Revised-OOB is a strange ruleset, IMHO, with some aspects coded even more confusing in v2-OOB. Revised-LHTR starts to sort things clearer and from Anniversary onwards the rules are structured pretty good, as I think.
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With regards to your initial posting above here is another candidate to add:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/989/open-aa-revised-bug-aa-fire-casualty-selection-issues
For any reason the topic behind this link containing an intense and important discussion including clarifications - is not accessible at this time (I hope it has not been accidentally deleted by someone) - but the result is noted here:
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/4133 -
@Hepps said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
@Cernel said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
@Panther said in AA revised - possible upgrades:
- Transports can offload into the same territory in both combat and noncombat movement if the second unit was loaded in a previous turn.
On this regard, I'm actually not sure if a move like this would be allowed: starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 infantries into it, sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 infantry into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then offloading the other 1 infantry, into the same territory, during Non Combat Move.
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I am just not sure how this is relevant?
Presumably if you are taking a territory... you either unload both units from a single transport... or you unload neither. I cannot fathom a situation where you had 2 combat units on a single transport and chose to unload only one, then unloaded the other during NCM into the same territory you just captured. It makes no sense. Seems as though the entire thing is a moot point.
Of course, it is a rather marginal situation related virtually exclusively to dice variability. Meaning, closely depending on dice results, maybe in a battle somewhere else, it may be hard to say if it is better offloading only 1 infantry or 2, so, if you can, you may as well retain the ability to decide about that after dice have been rolled. For example, you may have 3 transports with 2 infantries each taking part in a sea battle, and, depending on dice results somewhere else, it may be better offloading only 1 or all 6 infantries into a territory, so, if you can, you may want to do that. The variability may, as well, be on the transport side. Maybe a battle somewhere went bad enough that transport now is at huge risk, so you don't want it to sink with an infantry on board, even if the alternative is offloading that infantry in a territory where it will be easily wiped out, that you preferred taking with only 1 of them.
Beside dice variability, the other item would be that, deciding if offloading 1 or 2 in non combat move, you can lower your chances of miscalculating something (as reasoning over a clearer picture).
Substantially, it is like making a non combat movement during combat movement. Aside from particular cases, you should never want to do that, as waiting for non combat movement is at least surely not worse, so no reasons not to (even in case you are 100% sure you are going to do that movement, there is no reason not to wait NCM to do it).
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@Panther Yeah I know krieghund told me "the only circumstances under which a transport may offload in both combat and noncombat movement are those that you have described above", and the only case I was making was exclusively the unit offloaded during NCM being already loaded on the transport, but I think I'm still not sure he might have overlooked this matter, so I guess I will ask him again about it specifically, maybe.
