EV + Started Lobby columns
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Two more columns that need help to be useful, engine version + started. Given they are not useful, the immediate inclination is to remove them until we can think of something better.
EV has a number of problems, I don't know if there is anything useful remaining for this column, it seems legacy now:
- same value in every row makes it not useful
- the compatible/needed engine version goes out a few more numbers, so just '1.9' is not necessarily sufficient
- we are really unlikely to have mixed major game engine revisions n the same lobby. EG: we are likely to have a 1.10 or 2.0 and 2.1 lobby as those come out.
The started column has a number of issues:
- not clear what the time zone is
- data is very suspect. In the screenshot, we have a bot game waiting for players and another in progress, all roughly at the same time. It seems unlikely for that to be accurate. Whenever I try to use the started time stamp, it never seems so useful as the data it is presenting is really hard to trust
- the information is somewhat trivia. Occasionally it's interesting to know how long someone has been waiting. To really know how advanced a game is, the round number is much more accurate.
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@lafayette Agree. Axe them.
What does anyone care what time a game started? Even if you can correct the timezone issue...Am I to admire that people have been playing for 6 hours? If it is a save that just restarted do I care that they have only been on for 20 minutes? The information in this column is completely irrelevant. Waste of space.
Engine version is pretty useless as well. As you say with at least 3 more digits... it does nothing what-so-ever. Another complete waste of space.
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@lafayette Engine version was very useful when the versioning was actually displayed.
The started is quite useful when you have ghosts in lobby, with the same host names as a working one, and want to boot the older ones, especially when requested by users. -
@LaFayette Cernel is one hundred percent correct on it's help in finding the correct ghosts in the lobby by showing the newest. Often when using the toolbox and right clicking on a host for info it will lock up your java if it is a ghosted host. Other than that I do agree it is a useless feature. Ditto for EV.
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@LaFayette Status could also probably be reworded and shortened as well. It would also be really cool if one of those removed columns could some day become tournament column.
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@LaFayette I believe the started time is actually recalculated for every client depending on their timezone.
Fiddled around with this code ages ago ^^ -
@prastle @Cernel Are you strongly in favor of keeping 'stated' column or okay with removal?
IMO ghost games are easy enough to detect, they become obviously stagnant, player count does not change, and you can't join them. Do we keep started column just for that benefit?
Personally, it's pretty clear cut, it's almost just as important to remove features as it is to add good ones. Extra features detract from the other things people want to do, more is not better when it comes to things on the screen. From a code point of view, the same applies but two fold over as it's less things to need to keep working, understand and update.
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@lafayette said in EV + Started Lobby columns:
@prastle @Cernel Are you strongly in favor of keeping 'stated' column or okay with removal?
Neither one, nor the other. I said "quite useful" and I meant it literally; like in "fairly useful".
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@lafayette EV is only useful if we started listing the complete engine version number. Game started is only useful for mods in finding ghost games. If you are going to remove Game Started then please try and fix the toolbox so that right clicking for host info on a bot or hosted game does not lock up your Java when it has a ghosted game. Mods don't want to have to attempt to join games just to see if they have ghosted. It is also quite annoying having to kill your java and rejoin the lobby because the tool box locked up. Perhaps a, " Could not connect for host info!" pop up error could be added to the toolbox instead of it just locking up? Similar to the Could not connect one for joining a game?
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Okay, I understand the real problem is really that toolbox freezes when trying to check ghosted games. Failing that, mods rely on started date. But.. I've done the same, started date is only so useful, the round number and player count are frozen, and usually there is a comment like "join this game".
M opinion on this is we are hurting the UX for all players, showing a useless column for them to make up for the fact we have a bad bug in moderator toolbox, which is how we are supposed to find out if a game is ghosted. Personally I don't think it's a good trade off, even if this is useful for moderators, we are cluttering the UI for every player every time. Unnecessary UI elements are quite bad, not only are they not useful themselves, but they add clutter and make all other UI elements less valuable, hence I'm pretty confident that even if we have this one use-case, it's not worth it, particularly when there are other workarounds for mods, and using the start column is itself a work-around.
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I've created a bug report about the toolbox problem: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/issues/3729
Please keep in mind unless there is a ticket, as far as devs are concerned it is working (so random messages of, 'this is broken' i would suggest are misguided, we need tickets and instead refer to the ticket number).
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@lafayette Also one other scenario that occurs often in the lobby is from actual hosts that lockup and then they just fire a new room without closing their locked one. Often they then ask mods to close/remove it from the lobby. Without a start time we won't have any idea which one to boot. Without once again attempting to join. Just my two cents.
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@prastle said in EV + Started Lobby columns:
@lafayette Also one other scenario that occurs often in the lobby is from actual hosts that lockup and then they just fire a new room without closing their locked one. Often they then ask mods to close/remove it from the lobby. Without a start time we won't have any idea which one to boot. Without once again attempting to join. Just my two cents.
I've experienced that problem, how do players know which one to rejoin? That is the biggest issue there IMO, and hence why I say there is often a comment. I've gone up to 4 reloads before and had comments like "reload #3"
IMO the start column is only useful because it is a workaround. We really should fix the locking up ghosted games, get them booted automatically, and fix toolbox.
I think a reasonable short-term solution would be to hide the started column for standard users and display it for moderators.
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@lafayette said in EV + Started Lobby columns:
I've experienced that problem, how do players know which one to rejoin?
My point there, is while it's a problem for moderator, it's a MUCH larger problem for the game players, and they do not necessarily use the started column to solve this (mainly nobody trusts it as often the values reported make no sense).
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@lafayette Also this goes back to the old adage of... "Teach a man to fish". People can solve their own locked hosts themselves. I do not want to spend my days deleting peoples jambed up java issues. If they have locked their Java... close it. If you cannot press 'Cntrl' +'Alt'+'Del' then I don't feel I need to spend my days deleting peoples old hosts.
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@lafayette ok that would work as well. The problem is I suspect the general users make use of it to find the new game room/table.
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@prastle Does the "In Progress" and "Awaiting Players" not address this issue?
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@hepps No. The only way to discover is by trying to join a game. Personally I would change that column as well. To just waiting and started. or something quite Shorter and less wordy.
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@hepps The reason in progress does nothing is because the locked bot stays in progress
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@prastle A player is going to point that out immediately. And since we have BOT numbers... finding it is hardly an issue.
