Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread

[Hepps]

@cernel Yeah almost everything you discussed was really all we were planning on looking at. It was meant to just clean it up not really over haul the entire thing.

I agree that the Manchuko cavalry is needing to be either changed or at the very least cleaned up to look similar to all the other units.

The Inf design looks good. Much improved.

The Artillery shells were just lifted from @Frostion IW map as a way to quickly substitute the Hvy Bomber icons @pulicat had used originally used.

[Hepps]

@redrum Here is a rendering of the train with the Russian hue added. Is this what you were looking for?

[redrum]

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

@Hepps Trains image looks great. If you can post it in each nation's hue then I'll definitely add them in.

[Hepps]

@redrum I'll think about it.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

Yes, I believe that's inevitable when you enlarge an image. I don't plan on making an actual new relief for this map, so assuming that means better not having this as a map skin in the repository (wasn't proposing it as original), then nevermind.

[Cernel]

@redrum A problem that I'm sure you'll perceive now that you are playing this map is that the program doesn't try alternative routes when the shortest one is blocked by a canal. This is particularly relevant here, with the many land canals, and it is going to be a substantial annoyance when making moves with the air units, as they will try to go through the trains only connections, probably seldom requiring the use of ctrl for them.
This would be a much bigger problem if you would make, for example, a game in which you have portals teletransporting stuff very far away, as those would really muck down a lot of stuff that can't use them.

[redrum]

@cernel Yeah, one of the first things I noticed. Essentially route finding needs to consider if canals aren't passable by the selected units. Otherwise route finding tries to use the city to city connections and players have to use waypoints a lot. This is very similar to the issue with mountains not being passable on BFA that I just fixed.

[mattbarnes]

@redrum do I want a test game? Yes, in theory. But time is an issue. I’m still playing the old map with my father in law, which absorbs what little leisure time I have. Let me see if I get a free evening and if so I’ll have a go at a PBEM and send it to you.

PS instead of light artillery, why not rename them as “generals”? They enhance infantry attacks, right? Wouldn’t need to change the stats as gameplay at all just the label and icon. Would just get us away from the non-historical surplus of artillery.

And the other Japanese units could maybe be relabelled:
Armoured cars -> mobile infantry or cavalry
Mech infantry -> light infantry
Heavy artillery -> artillery
Tanks -> tankettes

[Cernel]

@mattbarnes It's really hard to guess what those light artilleries that are faster than infantries are representing. My only guess is "horse artillery", but so many? I wouldn't go for making them generals.

[Cernel]

@redrum Why didn't you attack Liaocheng with the Nationalists?!

That would have been a +23 swing average with units that have not much better ways to go.

Anyways, I think that is the first case you would meet playing the game, as the fighter in Naking can be made to reach only with Ctrl (you would be surprised how few people, even veterans, know about Ctrl-ing the path).

I mean, that is where I was expecting you to see your fighter trying to fly on rails.

[redrum]

@cernel Uh I must have missed some of the units that can reach there? I think the best odds I found were something like -25 TUV swing. Care to share a save game showing your opening?

[Cernel]

@redrum Haven't actually yet decided if I want to play this game (don't take this as anything particular; I'm just very picky in general), but I'm considering it. The Liaocheng attack is just the first thing I noticed, as I also wondered if that was intended in the first place. I would be interested to hear back from the few still alive that played the game with pulicat, but it seems like a mandatory round 1 move, that is extremely random with dice, and I'm really wondering if this is intended, or pulicat overlooked this (what's the point of being surrounded like that, if you can take such a shot?), alse because of, you know, history...

[Cernel]

@redrum Actually, I missed that armour can land transport heavy_artillery, so that is actually a +28 TUV swing and 51% win probability (killing all and saving your fighter) (and the autoselect should make you land transport the heavy_artillery, preferentially to the infantry, if a fix to transporting highest attack units first can be made).
Moreover, the fact that armour is a land transport implies that the armour unit is not even representing the infantry organic of the Japanese tank regiments, that makes the current infantry ratio even more incredibly ahistorical (as you would have to actually subtract a number of infantry equal to the number of armours etc., in confronting with the historical data on divisions, regiments etc., that usually have more than enough infantry you can transport in organic, and a bunch actually keeping up with bicycles).

[redrum]

@cernel Ok, I just tested and got the +28 TUV now. I totally missed armor are land transports! Feel like on this map that makes them extremely strong at 6 TUV and feels kind of weird. And yeah a 50/50 battle with that many units round 1 is not an ideal setup IMO. I'm almost definitely going to remove isLandTransport from armor in the next version.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

And yeah a 50/50 battle with that many units round 1 is not an ideal setup IMO.

Yeah, that really makes the game hard to be taken seriously with dice, since a huge dicing there is going to have a massive snowball effect, and liking dice doesn't necessarily mean it's great to be down to 10% chances to win the game after 5 minutes of playing. I think it's not a problem at all for LL gameplay, instead. Anyways this still doesn't beat or come close to 270BC Lilybaeum with the city.:face_without_mouth:

[erik542]

@cernel said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

Yeah, I guess that pulicat made the Japs so high tech to feature the material superiority with respect to the Chinese, but to me it feels that has been pushed too far, since, while the Japanese had surely much more hardware than the Chinese, they were mainly an infantry army with very minor and limited mechanization, relying mainly on infantry charges and close combat.

Pulicat did want the contrast in army composition to accentuate the attrition gap between China and Japan. That being said, it always felt a little off. The Japs should probably have some infantry if only to absorb some of the the initial casualties.

Honestly, it feels like the map would be better served if things were adjusted so Japan could go first since in most other maps the "aggressor" usually goes first in a particular theater.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

I'm almost definitely going to remove isLandTransport from armor in the next version.

I'd wait for the opinion of the actual and possibly veteran players of this map on this, I believe, but I think it makes sense armour being land transports (or at least it would if the starting units would be representative, which means very few armour thus very few infantry that you can transport). Usually armours have an organic of motorized infantry, and you can also pack a dozen men on top of the armour itself; so, in the moment you have different units for artillery and infantry, I think it makes sense to separate the armour from their infantry too.
If armours would be unable to transport, then I believe it would be necessary to represent motorization in other ways.
The Japanese have mobile infantry, but everyone else that got armour lack it, even the British, and anyways I don't really like mobile infantry as a unit, since you are not actually driving your trucks in the battlefield, so it doesn't really make sense that they have to die with the infantry they are motorising.
Personally, I'm far more perplex on the matter why the light artillery is movement 2, and would rather change that to 1, unless somebody can explain me why is that (if it is horse artillery, then ok, but probably should be called that way and be represeted accordingly; motorized artillery doesn't need to be light, so I guess it's not that).
But just giving some off the cuff opinions, as I've still to decide if I really like the game (sorry but it has a bunch of items that are really making me perplex).
Same matter, if armour cannot transport artillery, then you should have a way to motorize your artillery (I don't believe the light artillery is representing that, and, anyways, same matter as with the infantry, I don't see why the motorization must be forcefully part of what it moves, especially in the moment you have a game with railways).

[redrum]

Alright so found the first bug! So it appears from the notes that:
"Communists produce all their units outside of factories, and may also build on newly captured territory. Communists may produce up to 3 units in each territory. Communist have no capital, the flag in the map is merely decoration."

But the Communists can't actually produce units in newly conquered territory and I had to edit to achieve it. I'm guessing this bug has always existed but I'll let some of the veterans chime in.

[erik542]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

Alright so found the first bug! So it appears from the notes that:
"Communists produce all their units outside of factories, and may also build on newly captured territory. Communists may produce up to 3 units in each territory. Communist have no capital, the flag in the map is merely decoration."

But the Communists can't actually produce units in newly conquered territory and I had to edit to achieve it. I'm guessing this bug has always existed but I'll let some of the veterans chime in.

It's been like that since release, always had to edit that.

[Cernel]

The movement through cities is a bit strange in the moment you consider retreating.
If all your units are moving through, you can retreat to the starting territory but not to the city, that really makes no sense.
If all your units are from the city, you can retreat to the city but not to any bordering territories, which doesn't make sense as well, since units moving through the city from more far away would be able to retreat back more, and there is no reason why the ones only coming from the city can't.
Maybe this game would be better with 1 combat round only, not only for solving the above. Practically, the scenario is almost a late WWI army (Japanese) against poor WWI army (Chinese), and it was indeed grindy.
Moreover, if it is true that Japs are OP, 1 combat round may be what's needed to rebalance.