AA-fire/casualty selection issues in Revised (and other versions)

Panther

I want also to point out that, either ways, TripleA is even more bugged than this, as it allows you to make part of your movement (either Combat or Non Combat) to fly over an AA Gun, then decide where to go and what to do (bombing/attacking), after having taken out the flyover casualties.
For example, move from territory 1 to territory 3 with a bunch of bombers, flying over territory 2 with an AA gun in it, resolve the combat, then do whatever you want for the remaining 3 movements of the surviving bombers.
I think this is illegal (if you can confirm, @Panther), as, in any possible cases, you are supposed to define the full movement of the bombers (as well as what they are going to do) before resolving anything (so, practically, we still have at least a bug for Revised proper too).

At least LHTR clearly state:
"In the combat move phase, whenever an air unit moves over or into a hostile territory containing
an antiaircraft gun, it means that the antiaircraft gun will get a chance to shoot it down during the
conduct combat phase.
The air unit’s controller plots its path using the numbered punch out markers (the first space is 1,
the second 2, and so on). Whenever an air unit encounters enemy antiaircraft guns, it means that
you will need to resolve combat in that space, starting with the first antiaircraft gun encountered."

That indicates that the movement (plan) must be completed before any fire is resolved.
That's the "spirit" of all (combat-) movement rules, anyway, IMHO.

Cernel

@panther I think this would be an easy fix. Just whenever a plane gets targeted by AA flyover, it should be unable to move anymore during the same phase. But we need a developer to implement it.

Cernel

@panther I think where the rulebook blows itself up is that if you read it correctly, then you would have to resolve the NCM flyovers during the opening fire step of combat, which is simply impossible, since you are already past that point when you are in NCM.

Basically you/we would be correct if Revised OOB wouldn't have the shots in NCM too, but it does, so I believe it needs to be clarified. Maybe asking krieghund?

bayder

The Krieghund thread confirms AA fire happens outside of Conduct Combat, specifically in Combat Move and Noncombat Move during flyovers. As long as this stays the same for Revised proper, I'm happy. Changing it for LHTR probably makes sense as it's defined.

redrum

So it would be possible to support both sets of rules in TripleA but most likely would require a significant amount of coding effort to have LHTR work in the manner where it tracks all the flyovers and then rolls them during resolve combat phase. My general feeling on this is most players play standard revised not LHTR so this has minimal impact. Which leads me to most likely prioritize it fairly low.

Now on the side note of having to make your full movement in one go when flying over AA rather than in steps, that is something that could be more easily added. And I believe if that was addressed then the engine fully complies with standard revised rules (not including LHTR).

Cernel

@bayder I believe what Krieghund said and what it is apparent it is that it is impossible to know the truth based on the rulebook wording only, as it is self-contradictory.

It is contradictory in the moment it says "Antiaircraft guns can never move in this phase; they can make noncombat moves only. However, they can make a special attack in this phase only. Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down.", since there it was referring to the Combat Move phase, and we know that Combat Move and Non Combat Move are two different phases, while, then, it states that AA guns fire "Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun", thus in Non Combat Move too (which is undeniably confirmed as intended by the "Revised Orders" insert), which means it is not true that they can make a special attack when in Combat Move only, as the quoted text is clearly saying (since it says "in this phase only").

The full quote that seems to say that the AA flyover is to be resolved during the Combat Move phase is this one:

Antiaircraft Guns: Antiaircraft guns can never move in this phase; they can make noncombat moves only. However, they can make a special attack in this phase only. Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down.
The air unit’s controller plots its path using the numbered punchout markers to indicate each space in which combat may occur (the first space is 1, the second 2, and so on). Whenever an air unit encounters enemy antiaircraft guns, resolve combat separately in each space along its path, starting with the first.
Every time an antiaircraft gun in a territory is overflown by air units, it shoots once at each air unit that enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun per territory can fire, however.) If the gun misses, the air unit may continue its move.
Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air units before moving onto the next.

Which seems to affirm that the combat is resolved and the casualties are removed, but, even if so, since it says "before moving onto the next", not "before moving the next", you can interpreter this as that you first need to make and finalize all your moves (simultaneous movement principle), then you will resolve the flyovers for each air unit or group of air units, that factually would mean the current behaviour is bugged, as you should make all your combat moves before, then resolving all the fly overs attacks (thus not being able to decide any moves based on flyover rolls).

And, moreover, this is contradictory with this quote, that is specifically in the "Aircraft Guns" dedicated section:

Shoot Down Air Units: Antiaircraft guns can shoot down attacking air units. Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun, the antiaircraft gun fires during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die for each attacking air unit (but only one antiaircraft gun in a territory can fire, even if they are controlled by different powers). For every roll of 1, one attacking air unit is destroyed.

There is absolutely no way that "Whenever an air unit enters a territory containing an enemy antiaircraft gun" can be intrepreted as referring only to entering the territory in which you are going to do combat; it is clearly saying that this apply to all cases in which you enter a territory with an enemy antiaircraft gun, Combat Move and Non Combat Move alike, and, then, it says that the the antiaircraft gun fires during the opening fire step of combat (in all these cases).

However, this cannot possibly make sense, either, since, in this case (whenever) you also enter territories containing an enemy antiaircraft gun during Non Combat Move, and, at this point, you are already past all the opening fire steps of combat (and you could be just moving the air in non combat only, without attacking anything).

So, basically, this is one of these cases that you need someone with authority to come and tell you what's what.

In case of Revised LHTR, there is no doubt that this bug report is fully valid and correct, as we have the clarification.

In case of Revised OOB I very vaguely remember (and I'm not sure) that you should do and finalize all your moves, then resolve all the fly overs (thus not being able to do moves on the same phase based on their outcome), but, sadly, I currently cannot find anything about it, so I think here there is a fairly high chance that I might be just mixing Revised OOB with Revised LHTR, or whatever.

At the end, we can keep reading are re-reading the (very contradictory and unclear) rulebook for years, but the only way to solve this is having an official clarification (or errata!) from someone who can decide upon it, and I don't believe that we can take LHTR clarifications as valid for Revised OOB and, moreover, that clarification would fail covering the fact that in Revised OOB you have flyovers during Non Combat Move too (clearly that clarification was tailored for LHTR, where you don't have any flyover during Non Combat Move).

As I see it, until clarified, it can go a number of ways, the number being greater than 2. If nobody clarifies, I guess the owners of the software project will have to decide.

Cernel

@cernel And I still hope in @Panther finding something somewhere or getting it out.:relieved_face:

LouisXIVXIV

I think the section of the manual that bayder cites is ambiguous. No one contests that the aa firing precedes the remaining combat; for example you can't do a combat over here, then fire an aa flyover, then a combat over there... all the aas fire before the remaining combat. However, when precisely in the combat movement phase should the firing take place? At the moment you chart a path into a hostile aa? After you have charted the entire path of your plane? Or after you have made all of your moves? Any of those scenarios would take place is the combat movement phase.

However, there is another line in the manual that reads "Complete all combat moves before resolving any combat (An exception is an amphibious assault, in which sea combat must be handled before land combat.)" and another that says "All combat takes place at the same time, but each affected territory or sea zone is resolved separately. The attacker decides the order. No new units may enter as reinforcements once combat has begun. These directives answer the first question in spirit and substance imo, and the LHTR being consistent with this I is supportive.

On the subject of Non-combat aa firing, there is a line that says " Retreating air units are subject to fire from enemy antiaircraft
guns in any territories they move over.", however aa is not mentioned in the air units section of non combat move. My interpretation of this is that only retreating NC moves see aa, but not otherwise. Even though I've always played with firing in NC, I think a careful reading of the rules isn't so clear - after all, if you take what bayder quoted very seriously, it's the wrong phase for a special firing move.

Cernel

@louisxivxiv Yeah, as I said, what I remember is that it is a old bug that you can do part of your moves, get the flyover casualties, and then do the rest, but should finalize your moves before resolving any combat. However, I cannot find anything about it now, and I'm not sure that might have been a LHTR clarification or what. But I agree that reading the rulebook seems to imply that at very least you should roll the flyovers after all moves are done, but it is definitely not clear.

Cernel

@redrum Can you let me/us know what you believe I got wrong? I wouldn't mind adding an edit in bottom line to avoid confusion.

Panther

@cernel said in AA revised minor bug:

@cernel And I still hope in @Panther finding something somewhere or getting it out.:relieved_face:

Rereading the 2004 Revised rulebook I have found this (page 13):

"The air unit’s controller plots its
path using the numbered punchout
markers to indicate each space in
which combat may occur (the first
space is 1, the second 2, and so
on). Whenever an air unit
encounters enemy antiaircraft
guns, resolve combat separately in
each space along its path, starting
with the first.

Every time an antiaircraft gun in a
territory is overflown by air units,
it shoots once at each air unit that
enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun
per territory can fire, however.) If
the gun misses, the air unit may
continue its move.
Resolve all combats involving
a given air unit or group of air
units before moving onto the
next."

That shows that the flight (plan) must be completed before resolving the combat per territory.

Cernel

@panther Yeah, that I already knew when I asked you confirmation (and was the basis I believe the engine behaviour is at least bugged there), and I've also pasted that in a previous post of mine. But, as I read it, that doesn't clarify if you move a number of air, do the flyovers shots, then decide what to move next (the current engine behaviour, except for the extreme bug of being able to split the movement decisions on a same phase for the same units), or you do all moves and, then, resolve one after the other the air units or group of air units that did flyover. "Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air units before moving onto the next." could mean either, and isn't all movement on a same phase supposed to be simultaneous?

Panther

@cernel Ah ok. Yes :
"All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time."

And for example a bomber flying over enemy AA-guns does a (single) move from his starting point to the territory it intends to attack. The bomber reaches its target in case it survives the (fly-over) AA-fire.

So do all air units - all of them start and move at the same time.

bayder

My head hurts...:confounded_face:

LouisXIVXIV

:). I don't know if what I'm about to add has any value since I'm not quoting the rule book but ... I just wanted to add regarding the NC move - it's intuitive that aa wouldn't fire during noncombat. Countries are gigantic geographically so you'd expect a general fly over to be able to avoid aa protected sites, which should be few and far between. They are protecting targets, where they are unavoidable when attacking the target. If you were in retreat, you could argue things went wrong and you didn't have control over your NC flight path, hence aa firing.

Cernel

@louisxivxiv said in AA revised minor bug:

:). I don't know if what I'm about to add has any value since I'm not quoting the rule book but ... I just wanted to add regarding the NC move - it's intuitive that aa wouldn't fire during noncombat. Countries are gigantic geographically so you'd expect a general fly over to be able to avoid aa protected sites, which should be few and far between. They are protecting targets, where they are unavoidable when attacking the target. If you were in retreat, you could argue things went wrong and you didn't have control over your NC flight path, hence aa firing.

So, realism doesn't really apply here, and that would be true both of Combat Move and Non Combat Move flyovers alike (but I agree that the most realistic behaviour is v3, where AA fires only in the embattled territory). Regarding Non Combat Move flyovers, while the rulebook is contradictory, there is no doubt that in revised you are getting shot in Non Combat Move, just like in Combat Move (meaning any case you enter a territory with AA), as that is confirmed by a number of external items, namely the mentioned "Revised Orders" insert and the fact that the Non Combat Move flyover has been removed in LHTR and it is officially detailed as a difference from original Revised.

bayder

I might be stating (or restating) obvious things, but this is my understanding in summary:

In LHTR AA fire only in Conduct Combat phase, and is fairly well explained.
In OOB Revised, AA fire on Combat Move and Noncombat Move phases, in addition to Conduct Combat Phase. This is clearly documented.
The only real question is when in Combat Move do they fire. Is it as they are moved, 1 at a time? Is it after all movements have been laid out? Or something else? This is open to many different interpretations, any of which could be deemed correct.
Triplea is coded with one of the interpretations, which is not necessarily better or worse than any other...but it is what all triplea players have been used to for going on 15 years. I will also add that, as one of the official playtesters of Revised (credited in the rulebook as Cincy Gamers), we interpreted and played it exactly as coded in triplea.

Panther

@bayder The way TripleA Revised OOB fly-over AA-fire is coded at the moment gives the player the opportunity to ignore the principle of "all combat movement takes place at the same time" allowing to discard and/or change whatever movement plans depending on the result of AA fire. I can't see any justification for this - at least not in the rulebook.

Of course you can say TripleA Revised OOB fly-over-AA fire is coded fine: But only as long as the players don't abuse it to alter originally intended Combat Moves depending on AA-fire results. Maybe that has never happened.

bayder

@Panther I guess it depends on how you interpret this line from page 12: "Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing anantiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down." Is this an exception to the "all combat movement takes place at the same time" principle? What confuses this to me is that the rulebook states AA fire happens in the Combat Move phase. If the expectation was to wait until all units are plotted out, then why not conduct the AA fire in Conduct Combat?

Of course I'm sure the community would be fine with whatever definitive ruling comes out...as long as it is from an A&A authority, and not just another interpretation/opinion that's not necessarily better than the current. I'm not trying to be a contrarian, just wanting to make sure we just don't jump from interpretation to interpretation (at a big time expense of Devs as this seems complicated to code/change).

Panther

@bayder Actually I appreciate the discussion. I just try to understand your interpretation. Please help me again, as I intend to contact Krieghund on this issue.

What we have from the rulebook (Combat Move Rules) is:

"In this phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile
territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking
units into the desired spaces on the game board; ... (page 11)"
"All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time ... (page 11)"
"Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
"Antiaircraft Guns: Antiaircraft guns can never move in this phase;
they can make noncombat moves only. However, they can make a
special attack in this phase only. Whenever an air unit moves into
a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a
chance to shoot it down.
The air unit’s controller plots its path using the numbered punchout
markers to indicate each space in which combat may occur (the first
space is 1, the second 2, and so on). Whenever an air unit
encounters enemy antiaircraft guns, resolve combat separately in
each space along its path, starting with the first.
Every time an antiaircraft gun in a territory is overflown by air units,
it shoots once at each air unit that enters. (Only one antiaircraft gun
per territory can fire, however.) If the gun misses, the air unit may
continue its move.
Resolve all combats involving a given air unit or group of air
units before moving onto the next. (pages 12/13)"

In this given context one could argue that the owner of the air units "plots its path" for every air unit that is supposed to move during Combat Move Phase, as all combat movement takes place at the same time. Once this has been done AA fire will be resolved group by group.

You argue that regardless of any context the sentence
"Whenever an air unit moves into a hostile territory containing an antiaircraft gun, the gun gets a chance to shoot it down. (page12)"
could be interpreted as permission for combat moving units no longer moving at the same time, but giving them a certain moving order that allows to react on resulting AA fire. So some units move earlier, some move later... as you have to wait for some AA-fire-results to decide how to continue your combat moves?

Have I understood you correctly?